Tony_Tarantula on 4/2/2015 at 01:32
Well, someone else has a take on this that I would call "interesting".
(
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/30/boris-johnson-jihadis-are-porn-watching-wankers)
And again, let's not pretend that society always has the radical pro-christian bias that you think it does. There's also several regions where wholesale genocide of christians is occurring, and much like the deaths of muslims it doesn't even warrant a back page mention in any major newspaper. It's also worth pointing out that America has largely ignored the millions(literally) of Christians that were killed in the Soviet Union just for not adhering to the state religion(atheistic ruler worship). Hell there were numerous left-wing change agents in America that actively defended those actions by way of putting red herrings in the way of any attempted criticism.
Apparently someone saying something that is "sexist" or "homophobic" is a much more pressing issue than religious genocide.
faetal on 4/2/2015 at 11:25
Yes, Christians also do the same thing to Muslims in their name of their religion too: (
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2015/01/un-muslims-ethnically-cleansed-car-2015196546788288.html)
The communist one is tricky, since it seems to be the only time in history where a state has tried to enforce atheism. It's something which is remarkable for being so unusual. Whereas religious persecution of other religions or non-believers is fairly common throughout history, atheist persecution (as in using a doctrine of atheism as grounds for reducing or removing the rights of others, not just an atheist regime which is persecuting on a different basis) seems to require a framework to live within (in this a communist state) to have any kind of effect at that level.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the sexism / homophobia thing - it's not like we can only tackle one thing at a time, plus sexism and homophobia are huge problems.
As for Boris Johnson, the guy is a complete idiot. He once published an opinion piece essentially saying "how can global warming be real - it seems to snow heavily in the UK
every year". The guy is broadly ridiculed in the UK by people with brain cells.
Tony_Tarantula on 4/2/2015 at 18:18
Quote Posted by faetal
Yes, Christians also do the same thing to Muslims in their name of their religion too: (
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2015/01/un-muslims-ethnically-cleansed-car-2015196546788288.html)
The communist one is tricky, since it seems to be the only time in history where a state has tried to enforce atheism. It's something which is remarkable for being so unusual. Whereas religious persecution of other religions or non-believers is fairly common throughout history, atheist persecution (as in using a doctrine of atheism as grounds for reducing or removing the rights of others, not just an atheist regime which is persecuting on a different basis) seems to require a framework to live within (in this a communist state) to have any kind of effect at that level.
It only takes one example to disprove the notion that you need religion to cause a persecution
Quote:
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the sexism / homophobia thing - it's not like we can only tackle one thing at a time, plus sexism and homophobia are huge problems.
Sidestepping the point. Why is it frontline news if some corporate executive says something mildly sexist, but wholesale religious genocide doesn't even warrant a mention?
I know you already know the answer but I'm also asking you to consider the implications: How does this impact public perceptions and the dialogue?
Also I'd add that if you start rambling on about how "homphobia" is the biggest issue to society to someone who'se entirely family was brutally tortured to death in front of his eyes in a 3rd world genocide, the best case scenarior is that he's going to think you're fucking crazy. More likely he's going to be tempted to bitch-slap some sanity into you.
On a macro level that's no small part of why the US is failing so miserably in Africa. There's been a lot of behind the scenes diplomacy to the ffect that future U.S. will be dependent on the African countires in question implementing pro-gay policy initiatives. Put yourself in the position of a country where half the people barely have enough to eat, there's no developed infrastructure, disease is rampant, and tribal violence is common......and some stranger comes along and starts moralizing to you about how the biggest problem with your country is that there ISN'T ENOUGH LGBT DIVERSITY?
You're going to be fucking insulted. Are you going to go with the US or with the chinese who will offer the same assistance without trying to ride the moral high horse?
Quote:
As for Boris Johnson, the guy is a complete idiot. He once published an opinion piece essentially saying "how can global warming be real - it seems to snow heavily in the UK
every year". The guy is broadly ridiculed in the UK by people with brain cells.
Something about a broken clock.....most of these guys involved in terror attacks do come across as involuntarily celibate masturbators.
faetal on 4/2/2015 at 18:31
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
It only takes one example to disprove the notion that you need religion to cause a persecution
Unless you understand what an outlier is.
Quote:
Sidestepping the point. Why is it frontline news if some corporate executive says something mildly sexist, but wholesale religious genocide doesn't even warrant a mention?
Provide examples. But I'd say largely because sexism is more likely to directly affect people you know. It's a little facile to think of news as being somehow hierarchical. Sexism is a real every day issue which ruins and degrades people's lives on a daily basis. It doesn't directly affect you, so I can appreciate that you may not care.
Quote:
Also I'd add that if you start rambling on about how "homphobia" is the biggest issue to society to someone who'se entirely family was brutally tortured to death in front of his eyes in a 3rd world genocide, the best case scenarior is that he's going to think you're fucking crazy. More likely he's going to be tempted to bitch-slap some sanity into you.
Yes, we should only ever care about the worst possible thing which is happening in the world. Also, again, you see people slamming homophobia as "moaning" because it doesn't affect you. Most of the people actually getting bitch-slapped are homosexuals by people who think that it's OK to do so because homophobia is still rife. If you don't know anyone who is affected throughout their entire lives, then I don't imagine you can appreciate how much of a problem it is.
Quote:
On a macro level that's no small part of why the US is failing so miserably in Africa. There's been a lot of behind the scenes diplomacy to the ffect that future U.S. will be dependent on the African countires in question implementing pro-gay policy initiatives. Put yourself in the position of a country where half the people barely have enough to eat, there's no developed infrastructure, disease is rampant, and tribal violence is common......and some stranger comes along and starts moralizing to you about how the biggest problem with your country is that there ISN'T ENOUGH LGBT DIVERSITY?
While we're at it, why do people complain about jobs when there is so much genocide. We should probably stop treating diseases too, because there is so much genocide.
Sounds to me like you're trying to assuage your own prejudices by declaring sexism and homophobia first world problems.
Hint:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014) IT'S NOTTony_Tarantula on 4/2/2015 at 20:50
Quote Posted by faetal
Unless you understand what an outlier is.
That's not how a causative relationship works. Your argument is that these REQUIRE religion to occur, and as such it only takes one example to disprove the existence of a requirement. It's also one of many outliers as most communist regimes actively persecute religion.
The fact that you think "homophobia" should be given the same priority as fucking GENOCIDE.....I'm sorry, I've got no response to that.
Sorry, you can't be reasoned with.
Also...
When was the last time you had any personal interaction with these countries?The difference is that I have. I spent a year managing infrastructure development projects in a third world country not too far from where you're talking about and quite frankly you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
How about this suggestion?
Don't you EVER try to berate me for being "prejudiced" when I've actually taken some time out of my life to help people who disadvantaged in the world and you haven't done jack shit My question is the same I asked you earlier that you ignored. Do you have any personal experience with oppression besides what you read about on the internet? The difference between me and you is that you like to moralize on the internet, while I actually did something.
Le MAlin 76 on 5/2/2015 at 01:25
Quote Posted by faetal
There is no way to stop things like this from happening. I was in Paris last weekend and there are heavily armed guys everywhere, particularly in the Jewish quarter. I doubt anyone will try anything right now, but it'll happen again elsewhere with a different set of factors contributing.
Like DDL says, this stuff happens all over the place and has since the beginning of history. We're still in the middle of the most peaceful era in human history, but blips will appear. While it's all "hundreds of Muslims slaughtered by radical Christians in Nigeria" or "Ethnic cleansing in Rwanda" we can pause over our morning coffee and shake our head at the sadness of it all. When it's nice upstanding Anglo-Saxons being killed in the name of a religion we find foreign and weird though, suddenly the whole fabric of humanity is falling around our ears.
That said, in the case of the CH shooting, the religion of the gunmen and those who influenced them was the factor which led to the choosing of the targets. This wasn't a secular assassination of some cartoonists who were offensive to someone else's prophet. Just like there are no secular fire-bombings of abortion clinics, because you need the belief in the idea that god puts a soul into a cluster of dividing cells shortly after conception to find abortion objectionable to that degree.
So all it's because of religions, unemployment, the high level of taxes, the war against Russians.
I never said that the assassinations of Paris was not religious (where i have writen that ? O.o ).
"While it's all "hundreds of Muslims slaughtered by radical Christians in Nigeria" or "Ethnic cleansing in Rwanda" we can pause over our morning coffee and shake our head at the sadness of it all": what ethnics fight against other ? In Africa the problem is mostly ethnic. Ethnic is more social problem, the ethnic group was first a social division and then it was viewed like different people, but it possible that two ennemies ethnic groups are just one nation but with a privilegied ethnic group and an proletarian ethnic group.
Le MAlin 76 on 5/2/2015 at 01:33
Quote Posted by faetal
I'm saying that religion drives, focusses and amplifies violence. So far we have
n religious precedents versus one atheist one. Like I said - an outlier.
Staline and Hitlers are both killed jewish and catholics Polish, but Polish had revenged against there two monsters, Poland is independant and the White Eagle is stong; and anyone, atheist communist or nazi will destroy the Poland who live with catholics, jewish and few tartars muslim; the religious had conserved the independance of Poland against the invaders. All men who want killed religious in Poland were nazi fascist and stalinist.
In Poland there was many religions, and no religion war, so explain me that if you can, how there was no civil religious war in Poland ?
