SD on 8/1/2015 at 05:04
People are blaming atheism for Stalin and Mao? Simply ridiculous.
Dogmatic belief is the inspiration for such acts, and since atheism is neither dogma nor belief, the argument falls flat.
Y'all can sit around worrying about whether acolytes of Richard Dawkins are going to detonate themselves on your morning commute, or you can pay attention to the real world, where religionists, and only religionists, pose an existential threat of that nature.
doctorfrog on 8/1/2015 at 05:39
More than the usual cowardly attack, this feels like it happened to more than just some folks in a country. This feels kinda personal. I'm not in the press or anything, but the idea here seems to be to frighten people into modifying their speech, and that's an attack on everyone.
Funny thing, I hesitate to push Submit Reply because every now and then I wonder about what combination of words might trigger a little uptick in some NSA credit report. So I guess, fuck anyone who tries to control me or you based on our thoughts, speech, or beliefs.
Specter on 8/1/2015 at 06:10
Given the furor after Sony pulled The Interview, I'd say to not make this a big deal would be hypocritical. Sony lost some money and embarrassing emails, and the US shut another nation's internet down. What will the response to the murder of 12 people be?
Mind you, I do not call for a knee jerk reaction, or really any kind of new anti-terrorism anything. Rather, I think people need to realize that people who want to be insulted will be. (Didn't Hitchens write something like that?) While it would never happen, I think the appropriate response would be major newspapers running an satirical image of Mohammed on the front page. Not one of him doing something lewd, or questionable. Just a simple drawing.
henke on 8/1/2015 at 06:27
Quote Posted by SD
Or alternatively, we should make more of an effort to remember the victims of this brutal assault on freedom rather than fall over ourselves to absolve "moderate" followers of a religion
Pretty sure we can do both. This isn't a "one or the other" situation.
fortuni on 8/1/2015 at 07:45
Quote Posted by Briareos H
I don't entirely get why this should be a time of suffering for all the French people. This is precisely the kind of group thinking that allows fear to grow and crystallize.
I titled this thread as 'In support of all our French Friends' as there are a number of French thief fans who are active members of this forum and I wished to send all of those 'friends' a message of support, so when they do get back to normality and log into TTLG they may realise that many of their thieving friends have been thinking of them during this horrible affair
I have a number of friends who are French, most of whom live in Paris, and as I am old enough to remember all of the terrorist attacks in the UK since the 70's including the 'bishopsgate' bombing by the IRA, in which I was only about 500m away when it went off, I know from personal experience the total shock and confusion that the population experiences when such horrors occur
So although I did not say all 'French people' I expect all French people are in total shock as to yesterday's events as are most people throughout Europe and the rest of the world. The outright murder of 10 journalists goes right to the very heart of what we all cherish, and the fact that you are posting on the internet is proof that you cherish the freedom of free speech as well
How a message of support acts like a kind of 'group thinking that spreads fear' I have no clue, would you make such a comment if I showed sympathy to a friend at a funeral ? Fear is spread through lies and violence, neither of which were expressed by myself, but both of which have been extolled by the perpetrators of this vile act of terrorism
Briareos H on 8/1/2015 at 08:35
Maybe if you read beyond the first sentence of my post you would find the answer to that question. To make things clearer:
Any form of mass support to "us" as a wounded people, and again, I don't mean necessarily by you, the issue is with media at large, is feeding a false narrative (in your own words "lies") where we all are victims, not just the people from Charlie Hebdo. This accomplishes two things: First, making them into symbols and martyrs (and Allah knows how much everyone needs martyrs, right?), telling any active islamist cells that they can win easily and do exactly what they said they would do and then, it makes people feel entitled to be victims and group-act like victims. These same people, during the first hours of the shooting, were justly horrified by the act of shitheads but by then it was just that, a horrible shooting, a disgusting execution. Then during the afternoon it turned into a vile terrorist attack against freedom thanks to the media, that's what created the "shock and confusion", not the heinous act itself.
fortuni on 8/1/2015 at 10:37
You are implying that the media has whipped up a false image of events in Paris turning a horrible shooting into a media frenzy causing fear, confusion and turning everyone in France into a victim....and yes in some cases the media can be accused of such tactics, but in this event I think the media has only reported the events not lead them
When terrible events occur nations hurt, they do become collective victims, even if it seems a little over the top sometimes, think the death of princess Diana, which I remember well where the shock and collective grieving was real and palpable, yes the media fanned those flames but the people started it, the media only reported the hysteria, but in doing so fanned it.
In the case of Paris, I have spoken to 3 friends from Paris and all were in total shock as to the events, no they were not frightened, neither did they consider themselves to be victims, but in all 3 conversations I had, all they did was talk about the events at Charlie Hedro until the end of the conversation....this is what victims do, whether they see themselves as victims or not, when someone has been hurt they want to talk about that experience as a way as coming to terms with what has happened, the media did not cause them to feel that way, they felt that way because of what has happened in Paris, and to a person they believed that this attack was an attack on the French belief in freedom of speech, and did not need the media to tell them that
So the shock and confusion came from within and was not placed on them by the media, although I accept that in other instances the media can absolutely be held accountable for causing such fears (think Bush vs Saddam Hussain)
heywood on 8/1/2015 at 15:35
I have to disagree with you Briareos. If this isn't an obvious act of terrorism I don't know what is. This wasn't just a random act of violence like the cafe siege in Sydney. It was a symbolic attack on western freedom of speech, which is why there is a sense of collective victimhood. We all scoffed when Bush said "they hate our freedoms", but there is truth to it. Our freedoms conflict with Sharia and there are many in the Islamic world (perhaps even most) who believe that it is just to kill non-Muslims in the West if they exercise their freedom of speech to blaspheme. We shouldn't just roll over when Islamists try to enforce their values on people outside of the Islamic world. I would love to see a collective "message" from those of us who share the same values that liberty shall not sacrificed to accomodate Muslims living in the West or to appease Islamic extremists.
EDIT: I wanted to add an addendum. I am not only concerned about threats from Islamic extremists. I am also concerned about trends toward suppressing speech or exchange of ideas that are potentially offensive to somebody. I used to think this was primarily a European problem, where the creeping expansion of "hate speech" laws has gotten out of hand. Case in point:
(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7434193.stm)
But it's not just Europe anymore. America is going overboard with "trigger warnings". Media is being asked to self-censor or warn people about content that might be upsetting to some readers. University students are demanding exemptions from reading assignments, course materials, or discussion topics that some students might find offensive or just upsetting or stressful. Some educators are watering down their curricula and feeling afraid to intellectually challenge students.
I'm afraid of a culture that would give up basic liberties to appease religious people and thin-skinned emotionally immature individuals who can't face the real world. I've heard people say that Charley Hebdo's work was in poor taste, but regardless I think it was an asset because it bucked this disturbing trend.
rachel on 8/1/2015 at 23:49
Thank you, fortuni.
Gryzemuis on 9/1/2015 at 00:59
Everywhere people are claiming "we are Charlie". Newspapers, tv-channels, websites, everybody is Charlie.
Charlie Hebdo attacked hypocrisy. Hypocrisy by politicians. Hypocrisy by the right and by the left. Hypocrisy by religions. They ridiculed everybody that deserved to be ridiculed. Christians, Jews and Muslims, everybody could be their target, if they deserved it. You think your prophet has the sole right to not be depicted ? Charlie Hebdo would draw pictures of the prophet. You think Israel should never be criticized because what happened in WWII ? Charlie Hebdo would make a joke about it, and show the hypocrisy.
And what do our media do ?
They censor themselves.
Example. This is what the British newspaper The Telegraph showed on their website.
Inline Image:
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/laffekutbritten.pngIn my country, we have a daily talkshow at primetime. Run by our most left-wing tv-station. They now spent 2 shows of 1 full hour on only Charlie Hebdo. Of course they claimed "they are Charlie". But they didn't show a single cartoon. Not one. Well (
http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/static/world/charlie_hebdo/kissing_hebdo.jpg) one, the one where Charlie Hebdo french-kisses a muslim. But no other cartoons. No cartoons of the prophet. No cartoons ridiculing Islam. While this is the core of the issue. The freedom that you can mock anything you want. The freedom to fundamentally disagree with someone else. Including disagreeing what others find important, holy or untouchable.
In other tv-shows I've seen the editors of our major newspapers, mayors of big cities, and other prominent Dutch people. Comedians, artists, tv-presenters, tv-personalities, tv-experts, etc. All claiming they are Charlie Hebdo. And all very scared. So scared that their newspapers will not show any cartoons. Their tv-programs will not show any cartoons. The whole heart of the issues, freedom of speech, is being avoided. They all claim that violence is terrible. But they don't seem to care much about what that violence was targeted against. Only people (Dutch and foreign) that I've seen that they will not change their behaviour are other cartoonists. Charlie Hebdo continues. Kurt Westergaard continues. I've heard two Dutch cartoonists say they will continue. But the rest ? Bunch of cowards.
Everywhere in Europe people go on the streets to protest. Also in the Netherlands.
In The Hague, the mayor held a speech. Mayor Jozias van Aartsen.
A few month ago (Aug 2014) a website posted this photoshopped joke.
Inline Image:
http://metronieuws.tcdn.nl/styles/artikel_main/mogilefs/field/image/977b22028c8419f74f37984526a56f7c-1414202603.jpgThey photoshopped Van Aartsen's head on top of the famous picture of James Foley. Because the mayor had said something dumb about IS-IS. The comment was "The West tries to beautify the world by self-censorship".
Satire. Maybe bad taste. Maybe not funny. But those are never conditions of free speech.
What was Van Aartsen's reaction ?
He tried to get the District Attorney's office in The Hague to prosecute the website. The DA started an official investigation. Only after 2 weeks the DA announced they would not prosecute.
Remember, The Netherlands is a country where our DA actually prosecuted a Member of Parliament for stuff he said about political issues. Yes, it was Wilders, and yes, Wilders is an idiot. But prosecuting idiots for their idiotic words ? Especially idiots that were chosen in an election to represent voters ? In a few months he will face another trial in court, over something vague he said last year.
Anyway. Our mayor of The Hague defending free speech today.
And 4 months ago he wanted to prosecute a website because they posted a satirical jpg.
It's disgusting.
In a week like this, I expect all media to not self-censor anything.
On the contrary. They should post and show as many satirical, offensive and non-sensical stuff as possible.
Just to show we will not bend.
Wishful thinking.
Inline Image:
http://www.lepoint.fr/images/embed/mahomet-etoile.jpg