Gryzemuis on 21/11/2015 at 23:32
Quote Posted by faetal
Who is defending Islam? Also, what do you mean The Left?
OK, I might be a bit short-sighted, and look mostly inside my own country. We have (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_House_of_Representatives_of_the_Netherlands,_2012%E2%80%93present) 11 parties in our parliament. Out of those 11, especially our Labour Party (PvdA, Party of the Workers) and Green-Left (progressive, but with a huge focus on environmental issues) are always standing up for Islam. While imho, it would be the logical thing to be opposed to religion. They used to be strongly opposed to Christianity. Our most conservative parties also used to be christian parties. So they were the "natural" enemy of the progressive parties. But now with Islam, it's completely changed.
Another example is the (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion) Antifaschistische Aktion. Those are a militant extra-parliamentary network in Germany, the Benelux and Scandinavia. They used to fight for political and economical reform, against the establishment and authority, against capitalism. They used to be related to squatting. (When I was young, I've lived in squats for a while myself). They used to be related to anarchism, autonomists, and socialism. For me, that also meant they were opposed to Christianity. Or any other religion. I guarantee you I have never ever seen a practicing Christian amongst the AFA-members and squatters.
And nowadays, it seems it is the most holy task for the AFA to go find demonstrations of right-wing people opposing immigration and start a counter-demonstration. I just don't get it. Religion is supposed to be the enemy. Not our saviour.
Quote:
I think Islam is just as nonsensical a set of beliefs as all of the other religions, but this doesn't mean that I think that should be a green light for anyone to say whatever they like about ALL Muslims, particularly when enough people doing that amounts to manufacturing consent for greater social prejudice, increased hate crime and even support for war against other countries.
Of course I am not advocating to make Muslims the new Jews. (We got Israel to do that for us. Joke). But I don't like our Dutch media only showing "Islam is love". The weekend and the Monday after the Paris attacks our national TV only talked about that this had nothing to do with Islam, that this might have a bad effect on Muslims, etc. I've never seen more films of the banlieus and Molenbeek, showing how bad the living conditions are for Muslims, etc. Apologists. One guy managed to steer the discussion from the Paris-attacks to the fact that in Rotterdam Muslim youth doesn't get enough internships at the end of their studies. For fuck's sake. 130 People get killed, and people wanna talk about how bad life is for Muslim kids.
During the last 10 or 20 years, we've seen how the general public has lost faith in our politicians. They lie, they don't act in the interest of Dutch citizens (or even their own voters). Taxes get raised, wellfare and social institutions get killed off, etc, etc. And the general public is aware. I think nowadays the next step is happening. The "common man in the street" doesn't trust our news-shows and tv-shows and news-papers anymore. The lies and propaganda are now so obvious, they don't fool anyone anymore. It's slowly turning into a Brave New World or 1984.
[Note to self: I should type less words ....]
Manwe on 22/11/2015 at 00:46
Today I witnessed an unknown stranger being arrested by what seemed to be undercover cops (maybe?). It happened at my job, at the counter (McDonald's, south of France). Just a random dude (seemingly harmless, white for what its worth) ordering his meal, and four guys coming in and putting handcuffs on him, telling him he knew why they were here. He didn't look like he knew... It all happened really quickly without a fuss, most of the customers barely even noticed what happened. They were gone as quickly as they'd appeared. The whole thing probably lasted less than a minute. It was completely surreal. Like something you'd see in a movie.
With the whole country under a state of emergency there's essentially no separation of powers any more. The police can, among other things: order a curfew (anywhere, anytime, indefinitely), raid any place they want without the need for a warrant, and take control of the press and radio (I hear the government wants to change that one). They want to extend that state of emergency till February. I'm not sure we're in a democracy anymore...
I know, first world problems and all, but I truly fear the worst for the near future. I think that oft-mentioned civil war our right-wing intellectuals have been pining for just might be around the corner.
bassoferrol on 22/11/2015 at 02:06
Well, at least they didn't open fire in the name of Allah.
But if a bunch of those peace lovers kill a hundred sinners, then there must be a political, social, religious reason for that and we'll shed a tear for the virgin-screwers because although the tactics were wrong, the cause is just.
Idiocy, the sign of our time in this part of the world.
To be rather tolerant with the intolerants.
As we say here: They are peeing on us but we say it is raining.
Harvester on 22/11/2015 at 10:52
Quote Posted by Assidragon
Care to list a few atrocities done in the name of atheism? Because right now, not a single one jumps to my mind.
There are none. The thing is, though, that some more radical atheists always claim that the world will be such a better place if we get rid of religion. I've heard many of them say 'religion is the root of all evil'. Not 'some evil acts were motivated by religion' but it's the root of '
all evil'.
What Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. did was not done in the name of atheism, but their atheism also didn't stop them from doing these things. I don't want to say anything bad about atheism, it just seems to me that these examples make clear that the claim that religion is the root of 'all evil' is absurd hyperbole, and I also call bullshit on that the world will be such a better place if there was no religion. People would just find other excuses to murder each other. Not because of their atheism, not in the name of their atheism, but despite their atheism.
Thirith on 22/11/2015 at 11:59
I've always found schools of neo-marxist thought more convincing when it comes to explaining why people do horrible things: economic inequality and systematic exploitation and oppression. Religion can make it easier to abuse situations caused by such inequality, but IMO that's true for all kinds of tribalism, identity politics and value systems rooted in the irrational. There are too many examples of horrific behaviour that aren't easily linked to religious affiliation and there are too many instances of religious people not killing others horribly for me to think that an easy link of religion to violence and any action following from this will make much of a dent in the evil that happens in the world.
However, it's easier to advocate a new crusade against Islam (and dark-skinned people in general) than to fight inequality, which may require a change in one's own behaviour (both individually and collectively) and doesn't make nearly as much money for those who already have it.
Gryzemuis on 22/11/2015 at 13:32
Al-Jazeera's view on the Sunni-Shia conflicts.
(
https://amp.twimg.com/v/2d51224d-a59e-43a7-862f-5800c03c8996)
Very interesting.
And it actually confirms what I thought.
They try to debunk that most conflicts in the ME are caused by the schism between Shias and Sunnis. They say the conflicts are not about that, but about power. I'm happy to believe that is correct. Of course it is always about power. However, if that is the case, then those powers probably use the difference between Shia and Sunnis to motivate/trick their people to fight for their cause. It's hard to tell people: "please go fight in this war, and get yourself killed, because then I can make more money off oil". It's easier to tell them: "this is a holy war, and Allah tells you to fight the infidels!".
Also his example of Iran backing both Sunni and Shia Palestines isn't a good one. It just tells us the Shia hate the Jews more than the Sunnis. And Libya is just a tribal mess.
Thirith on 22/11/2015 at 13:46
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
It's hard to tell people: "please go fight in this war, and get yourself killed, because then I can make more money off oil". It's easier to tell them: "this is a holy war, and Allah tells you to fight the infidels!"
That's a bit of a false binary, though. There are plenty of other causes that can be instrumentalised, and often are, to make people do horrible things. While the West also toys with the Holy War rhetoric at times, that's not what gets them to send soldiers to the Middle East and surrounding areas, and it's not the driving force behind the large numbers of civilian deaths that the West is responsible for. Clash of civilisations, freedom rah rah rah, that sort of thing - these days you don't need to invoke God or believe in him to go off and kill thousands of brown-faced people.
faetal on 22/11/2015 at 19:22
GM - the reason for a lot of promotion of the "Islam is peace" message lately is because the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful and their relationship with Islam is one of peace. It's to stop idiots conflating the jihadists with the majority of Muslims who treat the religion as being some kind of hive mind. The Christian bible is filled with grotesque disaplays of violence, righteous rape, genocide, murder etc... but it's pretty realistic to say that most Christians are pretty peaceful, despite the people who bomb abortion clinics, murder people accused of witchcraft (yes, even these days) and generally voice vile and violent sentiments about wishing for the death of all non-Christians on a very regular basis worldwide.
The key part of looking at this reasonably is not to think of the religion as being the essence of the problem rather than just a factor.
nickie on 22/11/2015 at 19:59
Quote Posted by faetal
. . . what do you mean The Left? A lot of perfectly good discussion is ruined by people trying to boil down the nuances to Left vs Right, Bad vs Good etc...
The phrases Left and Right re political discussion may be a useful shorthand, but they don't frame reality very well. Best is to avoid the phrases entirely.
Yes, but I find this quite hard to do in this situation. The majority of my vast family is Tory and church-going (excluding my properly-brought-up children) and would be quite happy to see
all Muslims, regardless of whoever or wherever, taken 'somewhere' and obliterated. And they say they're Christians. And most
non church-going Tories of my acquaintance think exactly the same. I can't help but think the connection is political persuasion, not religion. Perhaps it's newspaper-reader. Or maybe it's because I'm the only one in my generation and above who went to university where any statement demands evidence. Everyone else happily accepts the glaring headline of their favourite Tory newspaper.
I'm bemused by their total lack of christian charity whether they go to church or not.
TTLG makes me feel better.
faetal on 22/11/2015 at 20:07
The "right wing" (for want of a more nuanced term) mindset shares a lot of the same hallmarks as psychopathy. markedly lower empathy for people whose fate doesn't directly affect you.
