In sympathy - TTLG Forums

demagogue on 23/11/2015 at 00:08

For what it's worth, one of the famous books on 'Holy War'--I recently saw the author speak on the topic; his name slips my memory just now--argues and documents persuaively imo that a lot of conflict is coming out of religious concepts.

And that while it's true it gets mixed with politics, for him it's incorrect to say it's politics masquarading as religion, or politicized religion. He argues that it's more often religion masqarading as politics or religicized politics. He walked through a number of religions to give his case.

It's intuitive in the sense you can understand the large role a person's worldview has to play in their behavior. If people see the reality of spiritual forces around them, they're going to act differently in line with them.

icemann on 23/11/2015 at 05:26

And we've already had one holy war technically. The "holy" crusades back in the 1000s.

Harvester on 23/11/2015 at 13:13

Quote Posted by Gryzemuis

During the last 10 or 20 years, we've seen how the general public has lost faith in our politicians. They lie, they don't act in the interest of Dutch citizens (or even their own voters). Taxes get raised, wellfare and social institutions get killed off, etc, etc.

You're right. But at the same time you consider religion the enemy. Atheists are always talking about how it's bad that Christian politicians take their personal religious beliefs into politics. They talk about how that's a violation of the separation of church and state, even though separation of church and state has nothing to do with a politician's personal convictions, only that laws and policies can't favor any particular religious movement. But as you yourself are noting, parties who don't bring their religious conviction into politics, who have no religious affiliations or are actively anti-religious, aren't doing a better job in Dutch politics. You mention the last 10 or 20 years when people are losing their trust in politics. That's just around the time of the first so called Paarse Kabinet, without CDA. People rejoiced: finally we're free of religion in politics. But the first and second 'Purple' governments made a mess of it and didn't do better at all than before, they did arguably even worse. Back when Lubbers was in power, people didn't mistrust the government like they do now. Mistrust has grown tremendously since there are only secularists in power. So getting rid of religion isn't the answer for politics, just as it isn't for society.

Take ChristenUnie politicians for instance, you might not agree with their position on gay marriage or abortions, but they're among the most respected 'Kamerleden' in the Second Chamber, even among secular politicians. Nothing but good words for Arie Slob when he left the CU, even among the most fervently non-religious politicians and members of the media.
Meanwhile, secular D66 stooge Pechtold is lying to us all. He's now complaining that Defense spendings were cut in 2012, leading to increased risk of terrorist attacks. NRC journalists however, have found out that during that time period, D66 wanted to cut Defense and Security spending even way further than the government did. Wilders too, by the way, he wanted to cut Defense spending too. The only party that wanted to increase Defense spending during that time, was the SGP. And secularists all vomit on the SGP. Think again before you call religion the enemy. Secularists in politics aren't doing a better job than Christians used to do. And you're right, people are noticing.

nickie on 23/11/2015 at 18:30

All day, I have heard Belgians being lambasted for staying inside, when officially requested to do so (as I understand it), and not carrying on with their normal daily lives. If (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34897645) this is their reply, I like it. A little light relief from the gloom.

Gryzemuis on 23/11/2015 at 19:42

Quote Posted by Harvester

it's bad that Christian politicians take their personal religious beliefs into politics.

No they don't do that.

I wouldn't mind if religious people would act on their own personal believes. Even if I disagree. But they don't. Those beliefs are prefabricated and canned. They were read in some fairy-tale book. I don't mind arguing with people who have an different opinion than I have myself. But religious people don't have beliefs. They just repeat what they have been told to believe. They repeat what they have been forced to say. (If you don't agree with what your priest or minister or Imam tells you, you will go to hell. And you must realize two things: 1) fire is really hot, 2) eternity is really long). I can not have any meaningful discussion with people who did not make up their own minds.

Maybe religious people should lose their right to vote. Because their opinions are useless. It would almost be the same as allowing people to buy votes from voters.

Harvester on 23/11/2015 at 20:40

Ladies and gentlemen, the enlightened atheist on display here. You know, I'm a pretty busy guy nowadays. I have better things to do than respond to these frothing at the mouth ramblings. Nice way of taking one sentence and ignoring my larger point though.

faetal on 23/11/2015 at 21:19

Shame you weren't busy enough to forego that pointless response.

Harvester on 23/11/2015 at 21:38

Alright, very quick then, without going off on a tangent about whether religious beliefs are irrational.

That's what's always being said, that religious beliefs are irrational and Christians should therefore not engage in politics, because they are led by such irrational beliefs. The country would be so much better off without religiously motivated politics, etc. American atheists say the same. I think that's a purely theoretical discussion. In practice it's moot. Let the current state of Dutch politics be propethic to you. Even if politicians aren't being led by beliefs you consider irrational, they will just find other ways to ruin the country. I hope for you it won't be the case in America or wherever you guys live, but it's certainly the case here. Christian politicians led by irrational beliefs? Maybe, if you want to think so, but atheists aren't doing a better job at governing the country so far (my personal opinion is that they're doing worse, but that's up for debate), at least in the Netherlands.

Pyrian on 23/11/2015 at 21:56

I find the notion faintly absurd. Where's the evidence that Christian politicians take those values into legislation? If anything, the more a candidate preaches about Jesus, the more they legislate in direct contradiction to his most clearly stated values. Instead they come in with a bunch of cultural values that are widely associated with Christianity but don't directly derive from it (and in some cases are wildly at odds with it).

Gryzemuis on 23/11/2015 at 22:37

I have no wish to talk about Dutch politics on an international forum. It's a waste of time, unless any of the non-Dutch actually find it interesting. I doubt that. This is a thread about the ISIS-attacks in Paris.

Also, there is very little point to discuss anything with a true Christian. Their opinion is known. It is written in the bible. I have read enough of the bible (when I was a kid) to know in advance what your opinion will be.

Yes. I am exaggerating. I am making overly blunt statements. Just to make it clear I'm not interested in discussing this off-topic stuff in a thread about ISIS and Paris. I don't really want to take away any person's right to vote. But personally, I attach less value to the opinion of a self-claimed religious person. Because their opinion is by definition not their own opinion. You don't get to pick your own beliefs when you are truly religious. You just accept what religion tells you. That's the whole point of blind belief.

Quote Posted by Harvester

That's what's always being said, that religious beliefs are irrational and Christians should therefore not engage in politics, because they are led by such irrational beliefs.

No, that is actually never said. Maybe sometimes on a forum. But in the media and in politics, all religion is taken very seriously. All the time. And people jump through hoops to make sure nobody gets offended. While in reality, any sane person knows that God does not exists, all religions are a load of bull-shit, and we would be better off if all this superstition from the dark-ages would just go away.

I wish some people in politics and media would treat religion as what it really is: a load of bullcrap. We should make fun of it. All day long. But that never happens. People tip-toe around religious people, because godogodogod, maybe we offend one of the motards. It happens mostly when talking about Islam (see response to Charlie Hebdo shooting: no cartoons shown anywhere). But now the Christians demand to be taken just as seriously. No. Go back in your dog-house.

I swear, in the sixties and seventies, religion was almost completely removed from public life. Nobody I know ever discussed religion or god. Ever. I know nobody (except the elderly in my family) who is religious. In the seventies, when I was a kid, I thought mankind was making progress. And getting rid of religion was a great step forward. Nowadays I think we're slowly sliding back into the dark ages. (And the US isn't any better: 30% atheists in the US, and 0 atheists in Congress or the Senate).

130 People dead in Paris. Because of religion. Mostly because of religion. And I don't care if you believe in the yellow god that looks like an elephant or the orange god that looks like a pandabear. They are all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster) flying spaghetti-monsters to me. They are all bull-shit.