Stath MIA on 1/5/2009 at 04:51
Neat invention, it would be really cool to see a functioning model of Viki!
jtr7 on 1/5/2009 at 05:11
Don't worry, Mass', I know you have a lot ahead of you, and you still have the Mechanist Bots, and other projects.
FriendlyStranger on 1/5/2009 at 14:22
Quote Posted by jtr7
Nobody knew. She got away with it. If Garrett hadn't picked up her key ring the assassin used to get into Truart's bedroom, Mosley would've been in trouble.
I'm pretending she left her job voluntarily since she doesn't seem the type to be happy with a promotion to Sheriff after breaking the law and getting someone of his position murdered. It would be safer for her to resign and hide away.
Tell me where I my argument doesn't account for something, and I'll adapt. Another hint in the games is Alfred Hurley. To the Hammers, he was a devotee of their religion, to the Pagans, he was a friend. They fought over his body. The pagans sent a necromancer into The City to raise the dead in the cemetery, using the Pagan Sapling, the Elemental Cocoons, and Pagan Cornerstones to boost their magic. Both sides fought to bury Alfred, and the Pagans knew that's what the Hammers wanted, but the Hammers didn't know that's what the Pagans wanted. Alfred Hurley, a Noble, a Pagan sympathiser, and a follower of the Builder's teachings--lukewarm, belonging to no side wholly, and it caused serious conflict but in a contained area.
Well if you look at Mosleys character - her ambivalent position (guard/pagan) you cannot say every party in the game is 100% loyal to their cause. Because already one of the parties is undecut by a traitor (aka Mosley).Also Karras is a traitor of some kind for the hammerites. I can't see how you can insist that the factions are complete static - their members absolute unable to develop personal abberations from the factions teachings - that's just not what T2 displayed. These rules you impose are not IN the games (for me).
jtr7 on 1/5/2009 at 22:31
SPLINTERED OFF! That's more in agreement with what you are saying than not.
What's the problem?:erg:
"Splinter groups" are another Thief idiom. Characters go rogue and change the course of history. Garrett splintered away, Artemus and peers splintered away, Karras and followers splintered away (and probably Cavador in the end), Basso splintered away (went legit but performed at least one more break in, infiltration, and bailed his fiancé out), Truart splintered away from his sworn duties to the Baron and hid behind his aggression against the Thieves' Guild and gained support for his fight against the "dirty" people, Mosley splintered off from Truart and his "New Age", Gamall splintered centuries ago, Gruliac splintered away from the Woodsie Lord. That's off the top of my head, there's more, I'm sure, but they all still have the old fundamentals that place them in one faction more than any other. A Mechanist is a heretic Hammerite, and a Mechanist will never be mistaken for a Pagan.
EDIT: Wait a minute. I'm assuming you know what that means, and maybe you don't?
Beleg Cúthalion on 2/5/2009 at 07:01
Viktoria splintered multiple times in the cathedral.
jtr7 on 2/5/2009 at 07:35
:laff::laff::laff::laff::laff:
FriendlyStranger on 2/5/2009 at 09:19
Quote Posted by jtr7
SPLINTERED OFF! That's more in agreement with what you are saying than not.
What's the problem?:erg:
"Splinter groups" are another
Thief idiom. Characters go rogue and change the course of history. Garrett splintered away, Artemus and peers splintered away, Karras and followers splintered away (and probably Cavador in the end), Basso splintered away (went legit but performed at least one more break in, infiltration, and bailed his fiancé out), Truart splintered away from his sworn duties to the Baron and hid behind his aggression against the Thieves' Guild and gained support for his fight against the "dirty" people, Mosley splintered off from Truart and his "New Age", Gamall splintered centuries ago, Gruliac splintered away from the Woodsie Lord. That's off the top of my head, there's more, I'm sure, but they all still have the old fundamentals that place them in one faction more than any other. A Mechanist is a heretic Hammerite, and a Mechanist will never be mistaken for a Pagan.
EDIT: Wait a minute. I'm assuming you know what that means, and maybe you don't?
Yeah I know what you mean, at least I think: You say that till TDS there where no gray characters in the game - its all Hammerite or splinter-off, no characters just doubting, but staying with the Hammerite.
AND: That maybe true for T1, but T2 differs: Mosley is no splinter-off, she stays in the watch - not officially showing her new beliefs/goals like the mechanists do.
So after T2 I think its absolute legitimate to add in "gray characters" into the factions. I do not think it hurts the Thief world.
jtr7 on 2/5/2009 at 11:53
You're agreeing with me again, using my own argument against me.:laff:
Like I said, these rogue characters splinter off from some major aspect of their factions' common goals but maintain recognisable roots in the rest. I didn't say there were no gray characters. I said they don't switch to other existing factions, but splinter from the whole they do. Drept was an inspector for his own pursuit of justice for Lauryl, but a believer in the Builder and spoke with their idiom. The Mechanists believed in the Builder, didn't like the Pagans (just killed a lot more outright), and spoke with a Hammer idiom with a stronger anti-pagan slant. Mosley was, as I said, recognisably a City Watch Officer, still rooted in that faction, but did not believe in Truart's vision and turned away from his version of the Watch--she went rogue against the Sheriff, changed history, and we never saw her become a Pagan.
A dumb analogy: A splinter off a plank of cedar is not a plank, not a part of the whole, but is still cedar. It has a different place in the scheme of things--a toothpick or impaler of flesh, perhaps?:p
FriendlyStranger on 2/5/2009 at 12:19
Quote Posted by jtr7
Until TDS there were no real gray characters. The most decent Mechanists still held to the Hammer fundamentals, but one big one: They placed the boiler and gear higher than the hammer. That's the splintering point. There were Mechanists that didn't believe Karras or his vision were all important, but they still were against.
The factions don't have a lot of gray, and very nearly all can be expected to act exactly according to their rules, or it's a splintering off.
The games have the characters adhere to their factions fundamentals--except Gamall, who was among them, yet separate for centuries...
You don't? Well, then I apologize. I got the sentence "there are no real gray characters" wrong - I thought it would mean "there are no real gray characters." *g*
Seriously: I don't get what you wanted to tell me about my story idea initially.
Dia on 2/5/2009 at 12:58
If there ever is a T4 (won't get my hopes up), I have a nasty feeling the devs will probably twist, bend, fold, & mutilate it 'til it's veritably unrecognizable as Thief. That said, yes; I would truly love to see Garrett in the same types of settings we've grown to love in T1 & T2. Imho, without Garrett it just wouldn't be Thief.
I've played FMs where Garrett either wasn't the main character or he wasn't in the mission at all, and while most of those FMs were entertaining and interesting, I really missed Garrett. To me Garrett IS the Thief; always was and always will be. Maybe I'm just getting old and stuck in my ways, but T1 & T2 settings/environs hold a certain kind of magic for me. It's that same magic that so many Taffers have attempted to name and put their finger on and which is almost indescribable, but is what makes Thief Thief. If the devs change that, i.e., create a T4 that's set in the modern day with guns, etc., then it will have lost that charm and magic as far as I'm concerned. Oh, I might give it a try, just to be fair as I did with TDS, but I can guarantee you that a T4 of that type will be a letdown and disappointment for me.
I think the devs should just consult with all of our FM authors if they want to create a real T4. Works for me! ;)
