MaxDZ8 on 27/4/2009 at 11:03
I've just voted to leave Garret out. It's journey, when it comes to me, is ended with Thief2.
As said, I think he wouldn't be able to live up to the expectations without a lot of effort from storywriters. Not impossible, but quite unlikely to me.
If the story won't live up to sustain the character, he'll be basically ruined.
Personally I have sort of liked T2X, other characters are welcome to me.
massimilianogoi on 27/4/2009 at 14:13
Quote Posted by jtr7
That's precisely what I'm commenting on. Mace-wielding, genocidal, arrogant, committing atrocities without qualm, inhuman medical experiments, Nazi-like. :weird:
Jason, please leave out the political manner. Not only the Nazi regime did that things, there was so many other countries (like USA with red-skins, or nuclear experiments in isolated cities, Turkey with the Armenians, URSS with all the non-communists/jewish, Valakia of Vlad Tepes with the Turkish captured). This not a nazi related peculiarity, this is, unfortunately, something inside the human being. In fact in any country there are committed milions and milions of experiments on animals, and why? Maybe they have less right to live than us, just because we are stronger? You'll see that this thought is identical to that one of the Nazis, so, at last, we are not so different. Taking always the Nazi regime as aunt is wrong, in my opinion.
FriendlyStranger on 27/4/2009 at 18:42
Quote Posted by jtr7
Enriched and realistic characters that don't adhere to the code of their root factions don't exist in the Thief games. The rules of the games determine how far a character can move within a faction, never so far out of it that their roots are murky and gray. That's for the novels, not the games. Another way to state it is, the game has rules. Change the rules, you change the game. The factions are the game pieces and they always move according to their kind, they just give it a dark twist when they are corrupt, but they will never be confused with another faction--ever. Absolutely recognizable. They are not truly human with all our variations and ability to change allegiances, or act out of character. The game-mechanics determine how much a character can change. Change just a bit too much, and you have a splintering.
Techno-Thieves? Mecha-Taffers?
So, perhaps a psycho-Mechanist that makes Karras look like Father Norrell, and hates Garrett for Karras' death, the scattering, and the heresy trials, whom seeks to assassinate him like Gamall, her statues, or the Enforcers, but more threatening and only in cutscenes until the end (can't have the player kill him/her too soon).
I know you don't really want this, but I'm trying to see how this could work.
I experienced that a whole lot different - take Mosley for example, she is not commited to Truart's plans (ok he is not even commited to his doings either...) alltough she officially belongs to the City Watch. How can you exclude the possibility that also the Hammerite Order is infiltrated or undermined the same way - maybe by a vain of power resulting from ... who knows. The fact that there are no/very little appearances of such gray characters in the order does not mean they may not exist in future story lines: The step T1-->T2 is proof for that. LGS could never have initiated the mechanists if every Hammerite was a 100% believer of the Hammerite doctrine/teachings.
btw Garrett practically is a Techno-Thief with his equipment and mechanic eye.
jtr7 on 27/4/2009 at 22:44
She splintered off, didn't she. I believe I emphasised that point.
FriendlyStranger on 28/4/2009 at 07:48
Yeah but splintering off a group is only the last ressort of losing faith in a certain group. Mechanists were part of Hammerites, some startet to get different beliefs, this builds up till they finally leave the old group. But in my eyes it can be taken granted not every Mechanist immedeatly left the Hammerites after discovering doubts in their teachings - such decisaions take time.
jtr7 on 28/4/2009 at 07:57
I know you're trying to inject realism and real humanity, but my argument is from the standpoint of the game's rules and structure. Mosley was still City Watch and there was no doubt of it, plus she was admired by her peers. I'm coming from the perspective that one does not introduce or remove a rule without changing the game, but fan-fiction is the way to go for this idea, or an FM, of course.
At first I was disappointed that TDS had no mention of Mosley as part of the City Watch, and then I realised she would not take a promotion, after conspiring to assassinate the sheriff, even if he had it coming.
FriendlyStranger on 28/4/2009 at 09:18
I understand your argument, but I personally don't recepted the game to really obey this rules. I'm just not fully convinced the previous games were as restrictive in these aspects as you say.
massimilianogoi on 28/4/2009 at 17:27
Quote Posted by jtr7
At first I was disappointed that TDS had no mention of Mosley as part of the City Watch, and then I realised she would not take a promotion, after conspiring to assassinate the sheriff, even if he had it coming.
Yes, it's a shame that there are no female guards in there...
How they get to knowledge that Mosley was involved in the crime? I doubt the pagan spied.
jtr7 on 28/4/2009 at 17:33
Nobody knew. She got away with it. If Garrett hadn't picked up her key ring the assassin used to get into Truart's bedroom, Mosley would've been in trouble.
I'm pretending she left her job voluntarily since she doesn't seem the type to be happy with a promotion to Sheriff after breaking the law and getting someone of his position murdered. It would be safer for her to resign and hide away.
Quote Posted by FriendlyStranger
I understand your argument, but I personally don't recepted the game to really obey this rules. I'm just not fully convinced the previous games were as restrictive in these aspects as you say.
Tell me where I my argument doesn't account for something, and I'll adapt. Another hint in the games is Alfred Hurley. To the Hammers, he was a devotee of their religion, to the Pagans, he was a friend. They fought over his body. The pagans sent a necromancer into The City to raise the dead in the cemetery, using the Pagan Sapling, the Elemental Cocoons, and Pagan Cornerstones to boost their magic. Both sides fought to bury Alfred, and the Pagans knew that's what the Hammers wanted, but the Hammers didn't know that's what the Pagans wanted. Alfred Hurley, a Noble, a Pagan sympathiser, and a follower of the Builder's teachings--lukewarm, belonging to no side wholly, and it caused serious conflict but in a contained area.
massimilianogoi on 28/4/2009 at 18:03
Quote Posted by jtr7
Nobody knew. She got away with it. If Garrett hadn't picked up her key ring the assassin used to get into Truart's bedroom, Mosley would've been in trouble.
I'm pretending she left her job voluntarily since she doesn't seem the type to be happy with a promotion to Sheriff after breaking the law and getting someone of his position murdered. It would be safer for her to resign and hide away.
Hm... but maybe nobody knows about her, and for this she could continue to work. After all Truart seemed to hey eyes a threat, she though it was her duty getting rid of him, so I don't think she fell any guilt-feelings.
Anyway, the other female guards?? Tenant Mosley was not the only one.
Ah, and, if I recall correct, the successor to Truart was one of his kinsmen.
