Fafhrd on 28/7/2010 at 01:19
Quote Posted by Stitch
For comparison, I can't imagine that anyone watching
Inception really gives a shit whether or not Leo ever sees his kids again.
Doesn't the audience wide 'Oooh!' at the cut to black at the end kind of prove you wrong on this point? If the audience isn't invested in whether or not Cobb's happy ending is reality, then they wouldn't be holding their breath on the shot of the spinning top, and simultaneously releasing it on the cut (and I don't mean to cite box office as an indicator of quality, but only a 30% drop in it's second week kind of says audiences love it).
I can't even remember the last time I was in a local theatre that the entire packed audience (on a Monday night, no less) was as enthralled with a movie as this one. Even the row of douchebags that I was fully expecting to be jackassing around through the entire running time was silent. Usually I have to go to the Hollywood Arclight for that kind of theatrical experience.
And I genuinely don't understand the 'it's not character driven' complaints. The entire movie is about Cobb dealing with his issues with Mal's death. Everything in the film is in service of that. The Fischer job is just as much about Cobb realizing that catharsis within the dream is as psychologically beneficial as one in reality as it is about Fischer and his father. Ariadne's (name not chosen just because it sounds cool, by the way) entire reason for being is to get Cobb to stop suppressing Mal and gradually draw him out of the labyrinth of his own mind.
Shug on 28/7/2010 at 01:59
Quote Posted by Stitch
Also: my opinion of
Inception isn't exactly collapsing in upon itself, I'm merely countering absurd claims that the lack of character depth didn't matter.
I agree with you in that I didn't feel much when Mal plunged deliberately to her death. But I don't really feel like that affected the rest of the movie for me, the satisfaction of finding out what was going on as things unravelled. I'm sorry that 8/10 of Stitch's friends didn't enjoy the movie, and that
The Matrix was more showy and entertaining to the average summer blockbuster audience in America, but those aren't really substantive criticisms (I realize you didn't start that comparison).
I can only imagine people walked out of
Inception because they were too dumb to comprehend what was going on.
Also, although there's little care for Cobb and Mal's relationship, the fear of his subconcious getting out of control, including the utter dread of Ariadne stealing down to the basement level of his memories, was incredibly effective in my eyes.
The movie could have been better, as with most movies, but the experience I had in the cinema made me want to revisit the film again immediately, which hasn't happened in a long time.
Angel Dust on 28/7/2010 at 03:29
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Doesn't the audience wide 'Oooh!' at the cut to black at the end kind of prove you wrong on this point?
I don't see how it really proves anything. You can care little about the fates of the characters and still be intellectually engaged enough to want to solve the 'puzzle'. Most of the people I've personally talked to about the film fall into this category.
Quote:
And I genuinely don't understand the 'it's not character driven' complaints.
Well that's because, except in regards to some of the supporting cast, nobody has actually made that complaint. The issue has been with how ineffective the main character arc was at provided an emotional context and a few people dissatisfied with it, myself included, have been saying that the film would have been much better off if it had just scrapped it and gone full-tilt ahead with a
Heat/
Ubik hybrid. If Nolan's pre-release interviews are anything to go by, it sounds like that was the original idea too (he talked often of how he went back to add the emotional pull to the film).
Your mileage may vary of course but I don't think it's an unreasonable criticism.
Tonamel on 28/7/2010 at 04:53
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Ariadne's (name not chosen just because it sounds cool, by the way) entire reason for being is to get Cobb to stop suppressing Mal and gradually draw him out of the labyrinth of his own mind.
Yeah, I had a good chuckle when they introduced her, which I then had to explain in depth to my movie-going compatriot after the movie was over.
If we're going with the whole Cobb's-dreaming-everything-until-the-last-scene idea, do you suppose his father his father was visiting his dream in the first scene they have together? And that he sends a very real Ariadne into Cobb's dream to help him find his way out? After all, she seems to be the only person who cares about Cobb's mental health, and she pursues it aggressively from the moment she joins his team.Overall, very good movie. My only complaint is Snow World; No matter how cool tank-tread Hummers are, they don't make up for the fact that the dream should have been far less stable at that point. Will definitely be watching it again when I get the chance.
Stitch on 28/7/2010 at 16:22
Quote Posted by Shug
I'm sorry that 8/10 of Stitch's friends didn't enjoy the movie, and that
The Matrix was more showy and entertaining to the average summer blockbuster audience in America, but those aren't really substantive criticisms (I realize you didn't start that comparison).
I've spent the better part of this thread detailing exactly what in
Inception doesn't work, and I stand by that as substantive criticism.
Angel Dust repeatedly nails it.
Inception either should have simplified the structure and focused on the characters more or buried the structure needle in the red and really given us something to puzzle over (
Heat meets
Primer, if you will).
Sulphur on 28/7/2010 at 16:25
Quote Posted by Stitch
I disagree.
Memento isn't the deepest movie on the block, but it does focus on effectively telling one man's story. He's a sympathetic protagonist in a compelling scenario and you want to see where the story is going, and the fact that the structure is cool is merely icing on the cake. For comparison, I can't imagine that anyone watching
Inception really gives a shit whether or not Leo ever sees his kids again.
That's true. I think it really does boil down to, as you say,
Quote:
Memento is also a more inherently simple film, and because of this Nolan is able to let the film breathe and have a little fun.
That's the reason why Memento doesn't really need character depth, because the hook is simple and effective. (Again, the wife being murdered angle doesn't make the character, as such, inherently sympathetic. He
could still be an asshole or worse. And that's actually the concept the movie plays with, which is why it's compelling. Man, that's one hella conceptual circle. Quite the hook.)
Inception's hook isn't remotely as simple, but I don't see how it could be. The problem, as I see it, is the hook (idea-stealing, dreamworld exploration) doesn't relate to Leo's problem very well. They're almost two separate elements with little to no real synergy between them at all. It also doesn't help that the Mal subplot is sorta ham-handed.
Stitch on 28/7/2010 at 16:31
Only just saw this:
Quote Posted by Shug
I can only imagine people walked out of
Inception because they were too dumb to comprehend what was going on.
You may be correct, but that's not an assumption I'd make.
june gloom on 28/7/2010 at 16:39
I know someone who walked out of 2012 because "China saves the world."
Also I keep typing that fucking movie as 2112 and not even noticing it.
SubJeff on 28/7/2010 at 16:49
Quote Posted by Stitch
Angel Dust repeatedly nails it.
Inception either should have simplified the structure and focused on the characters more or buried the structure needle in the red and really given us something to puzzle over (
Heat meets
Primer, if you will).
Sure, for a mainstream film you could get away with a lot more character development. The plot and the character basics would lend itself to this quite well and it's
almost a shame it wasn't a lot longer and more character focused.
But jigga purleeease! Heat meets
Primer? In a mainstream film? YOU didn't get Primer the first time around, and come on be honest without reading any of the lengthy explanations would you have got it all on a second or even third viewing? I certainly didn't and I love that kind of shit.
There is no. way. a mainstream audience would have hacked that
at all! People I know (mmmmk, not the intelligentsia of my social group but still) are
already finding it too complex. I'm all for this kind of serious headmess sci-fi wankery and I'm sure that Nolan has it in him to bring us a fap-worthy twist-fest of real PKD cocksucking sorcery but we all know that Inception was designed for the mass market.
I'm not saying you're
wrong but just that it wouldn't work in the context of this film's aims.
Haaaaaving said all that; Inception has done one great thing for sci-fi - even more than the Matrix did it's given the mainstream a taste of something they probably didn't expect but can enjoy. Hopefully more people will be willing to take risks after seeing its success.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
I
once knew someone who walked out of 2012 because "China saves the world."
Correct?
Sulphur on 28/7/2010 at 16:51
in before someone mentions Bioshock
