SubJeff on 19/7/2010 at 21:46
Potential MAJOR spoilers. As in - spoilers for people who have seen it and are enjoying thinking about it.
The thing with Cobb's situation is this:
1. We never see him leave the Satio dream layer (layer 4) and in fact in layer 1 (Yusef's layer) Cobb is still asleep in the van despite the kick and so should drown. At that level, as has been explained to us, death = going into a deep limbo (though the drugs were wearing off at that stage. Remember, however, that even a second of layer 1 will equal years, maybe decades at layer 4 or below). In addition we never see what happens to Cobb (or anyone but Ariadne actually) as the timed kicks take effect.
2. The totem is explained as something which allows you to prove you are in reality and not in someone else's dream. I don't remember it being explained as something that proves you are dreaming, full stop. Presumably this is because the Constructor does not have knowledge of the totem and so cannot reconstruct it to fool you. However, this is not true if you are in your own dream since you are aware (even if only subconsciously) of the totem's properties.
Therefore it is my contention that it is entirely possible that Cobb is in a 5th layer of dream, deeper than the Saito 4th layer. In this layer, which only contains his subconscious and his projections of everyone else, the totem could have behaved in either way.
Al_B on 19/7/2010 at 23:51
Definitely a film to make you think - I just wish there were more like this.
I've a slightly more optimistic view. From what I understood, it didn't matter if you entered limbo from the first dream level or the fourth - limbo was still the deepest, rawest level of encounter with your sub-concious. Given the "He was delirious" opening line, it does seem likely that Cobb spent a significant time before finding Saito and given Saito's apparent age it wouldn't seem unreasonable that many decades have passed.Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The totem is explained as something which allows you to prove you are in reality and not in someone else's dream. I don't remember it being explained as something that proves you are dreaming, full stop.
Definitely one to see again. Not because it has any great "reveal" but it's simply a rich concept that was portrayed very well.
SubJeff on 20/7/2010 at 00:06
I don't think the delirious thing had any significance. I felt Cobb had looked for Saito for a bit, but he arrived at Level 5 after Saito - a duration which was decades for Saito.
And yes, that is a problem for that totem.
Scots Taffer on 20/7/2010 at 16:25
I've been mulling something over after chatting through the film with the wife, it's quite possible that Saito isn't real and is a weird dream-confused projection of Moll, think about the fact that he was making comments like "a leap of faith" in the helicopter (the same as Moll) and while he was lost in Cobb's subconscious, why exactly would he know the "train is coming" monologue perfectly?
henke on 22/7/2010 at 17:50
This film is already #3 on IMDb's top 250 list. That, coupled with the raving going on in this thread means that my expectations are skyhigh for this movie. Fuck, I'll probablly be disapointed when I go see it tomorrow. Luckily I don't really know anything about the plot, at least.
Fafhrd on 23/7/2010 at 02:16
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
I've been mulling something over after chatting through the film with the wife, it's quite possible that Saito
isn't real and is a weird dream-confused projection of Moll, think about the fact that he was making comments like "a leap of faith" in the helicopter (the same as Moll) and while he was lost in Cobb's subconscious, why exactly would he know the "train is coming" monologue perfectly?I'll see you that and raise you, Scots:
All of the supporting cast are projections. The only scene that takes place in the Real World is Cobb arriving at home. Crossposting from (http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124794) this thread on CHUD: Something I realized while thinking about Devin's piece: There are two key people in shared dreaming as it's explained in the film: The Dreamer, who creates and maintains the physical (for lack of a better word) world of the shared dreamspace (this is separate from the Architect who designs that physical world and teaches it to the Dreamer); and the Subject, who populates the dreamspace with their projections/secrets/whathaveyou. So why is it that Cobb's subconscious projections (Mal, the freight train) keep manifesting when he is neither the Dreamer nor the Subject in the Saito and Fischer jobs? Unless those jobs/that world are both taking place within his dream.
So I agree with Devin that the film as a whole is Cobb's dream. But I disagree that the ending is still the dream, and that the shared dreaming tech is something he created in the dream (and some of this may constitute fanwank). We're told that after prolonged use of the dreaming compounds, they become the only way a person can dream, and Cobb and Mal were obviously way deep into it.
So I will posit that when Cobb decides to run after Mal's suicide, he doesn't run to another country, but he runs back to the dream world, and within the dream he can spend months or years on the run working through his issues with Mal's death, realizing that he didn't break his promise to grow old with her, and saving another person from Mal's fate without destroying their mind (Saito), and that finally allows him to go home (wake up), and in the real world only minutes have passed. That's why his kids haven't aged, they're still playing outside, and they're still wearing the same clothes.
Mal framing him for murdering her is a false memory his subconscious created out of his guilt for him causing her death, and to excuse abandoning his kids so soon after their mother died (even though he knows it'll only be a few minutes for them).Shug on 23/7/2010 at 13:21
Very solid movie, reading this thread has made me want to go straight back and watch it again :mad:
The only thing I noticed about the structure: it was hard to keep the tension at boiling point through all the levels of dreaming even with cutbacks to the car, but I don't see how it could have been managed any better than it was
Eames better NOT have just been a projection Faf, he's the maddest dog of all time
Scots Taffer on 23/7/2010 at 16:29
Wow, cool theory Faf.
Shug: we can go watch it again... together :dreamy eyes:
SubJeff on 23/7/2010 at 17:03
Yeah cool theory Faf. It fits with a lot of the dialogue between Cobb and Caine's character the first time they meet. I found that conversation to be pretty loaded what with all the talk of going home and getting back to reality.
My only problem with the theory is it's a bit out there and I don't think Nolan would go for that. Memento was pretty messed up though, especially if you watch the secret "in order"version.
june gloom on 24/7/2010 at 05:58
I can not fucking tell if this guy is a spammer or not.
