Tony_Tarantula on 11/6/2015 at 04:47
Quote:
I think lack of education on what the man did in certain countries might be a cause of it.
Now as to communist chic, I read that the reason it was more tolerated in the west is because communism claimed to have good intentions behind their crimes, they committed genocide in the name of the 'people', of making the world a better place, equality, all that. Whereas the Nazis made it clear they wanted a good portion of the world's population dead or enslaved so they could take their land and resources
No. Nazism was less tolerated in the West mostly because they became embroiled in a war against most of the rest of the West, and as they say the victors get to write history.
If you ever get the opportunity to talk to anyone who remembers Nazi Germany I suggest you do it. The story they tell is very different from what you read in American or British history books. For starters it was a much softer police state then academia would have you believe. In a lot of ways it was softer even than America in its current state as prior to the war measures such as zero probable cause checkpoints and the risk of having your assets seized arbitrarily simply didn't exist for most people. The average citizen was mostly left alone by the state...UNLESS you belonged to a targeted religion, racial group, or spoke out politically (sound familiar?).
Another distinction is that they actually did sell their conquests as being noble causes. For example their invasion of Poland wasn't (according to the Nazis) just because they wanted power. They sold it as being necessary to protect the people of Germanic descent from human rights violations they were allegedly experiencing. Similarly the start of open hostilities with France and Britain was sold as being the result of aggression by those nations and them denying Germany it's right to regain its pre-WW1 borders, among other things.
ZylonBane on 11/6/2015 at 05:35
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
No. Nazism was less tolerated in the West mostly because they became embroiled in a war against most of the rest of the West, and as they say the victors get to write history.
Riiight. The Holocaust had nothing to do with it, you trolling dipshit.
Queue on 11/6/2015 at 13:20
"I walk that bucket down the road, and put them in a fire-- HE HEE! Just like the Nazis did to Jews, folks!"
So exactly how many 90-year-old ex-Nazis have you interviewed, Tony?
Tony_Tarantula on 11/6/2015 at 14:26
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Riiight. The Holocaust had nothing to do with it, you trolling dipshit.
No, dumbfuck, you're missing the
Grow the fuck up and try not to pop a fuze just because someone gives you information that puts you outside your comfort zone. Which is that the Nazis, just like the communists, had all kinds of noble ideals justifying what they did. The only difference is that the Nazis lost a major war which caused the curtain to come down, so to speak. Whereas the Soviets, who killed MANY more jews than the Nazis ever did and ran a prison camp system that made Hitler's system look like the work of an amateur, never were defeated in a major ground war. Subsequently their mass murders were never publicly exposed nor did exposing them ever benefit the dominant political narrative in the West.
There's also some other factors that I won't get into such as strong sympathy for communism among Western oligarchs.
Also..let's not forget that
Stalin killed over six million Ukrainians by deliberate starvation.
Let that sink in. In one incident alone Stalin killed more people than Hitler did during the Holocaust.
And you still think the Nazis have a worse reputation in history because they're worse than the soviets?
If seriously think that then you are extremely ignorant of 20th century history.
Tony_Tarantula on 11/6/2015 at 14:27
Quote Posted by Queue
"I walk that bucket down the road, and put them in a fire-- HE HEE! Just like the Nazis did to Jews, folks!"
So exactly how many 90-year-old ex-Nazis have you interviewed, Tony?
Yes, because everyone in Nazi Germany was an "ex-Nazi". There was no such thing as kids, clerks, bus drivers, or shop keepers and EVERY single person there was a passionate member of the SS who burnt jews on a daily basis.
Sorry. Reality isn't the cartoon version of history you seem to believe it was and tyranny typically does NOT consist of rows of battle armored thugs marching around in the streets for no reason. Even in the Soviet Union(at least the more remote parts that I've been told about) it wasn't like you got sent to a death camp instantly because you didn't clap long enough at the mention of Stalin's name.
For the most part they're normal people going about normal lives....who also don't DARE speak out against the power structure for fear of retaliation.
ZylonBane on 11/6/2015 at 15:21
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
And you still think the Nazis have a worse reputation in history because they're worse than the soviets?
Protip: Stalinism doesn't have a good reputation in the West either, you precious free-thinking snowflake.
Queue on 11/6/2015 at 15:27
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
... avoiding the question ...
So, would that be zero?
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
(at least the more remote parts that I've been told about)
Who's telling you all this stuff, and why?
Renzatic on 11/6/2015 at 16:16
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Yes, because everyone in Nazi Germany was an "ex-Nazi". There was no such thing as kids, clerks, bus drivers, or shop keepers and EVERY single person there was a passionate member of the SS who burnt jews on a daily basis.
I don't think anyone claimed otherwise. There were more than a fair share of good people who became members of the party for one reason or another. But that doesn't change the fact that, at its core, fascism is a pretty goddamn terrible thing.
heywood on 11/6/2015 at 16:47
Tony,
Melan said communist chic, not Stalinist chic. Stalin killed people because he was a ruthless and paranoid autocrat trying to consolidate power over a vast country. Not because he was a communist.
Communism gets a rosy treatment because it was a worldwide movement originally rooted in altruistic goals, and because a lot of people still naively think you can get the positives without the negatives.
But aside from you and some skinheads, nobody thinks Nazism had altruistic goals.
Tony_Tarantula on 11/6/2015 at 16:57
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Protip: Stalinism doesn't have a good reputation in the West either, you precious free-thinking snowflake.
For starters:
Quote Posted by Azaran
Now as to communist chic, I read that the reason it was more tolerated in the west is because communism claimed to have good intentions behind their crimes,
Note what I'm responding to...I'm responding to AZARAN'S assertion. It's also no secret that Stalin had a much better reception in the West than Nazism ever did with any number of "thought leaders" singing his praises and saying that he really wasn't that all that bad. I also don't know if you have enough memory to remember this but hell. America even had street marches in major cities like Chicago advocating the adoption of soviet-style communist governance.
Quote Posted by Heywood
But aside from you and some skinheads, nobody thinks Nazism had altruistic goals.
How the fuck did you arrive at the conclusion that I think they "had altruistic goals"?
Saying that the Nazis used altruistic justifications for their actions !="Nazism had altruistic goals".EVERYONE claims altruistic purposes to justify what they do. The Crusaders had to liberate oppressed Christians in the Holy Land, the Communists were simply fighting against the tyranny of the West, George Bush invaded Iraq to topple a tyrannical regime that was oppressing its people and funding terrorists, and so on.
That doesn't mean their motivations are genuinely altruistic.
Quote:
Melan said communist chic, not Stalinist chic. Stalin killed people because he was a ruthless and paranoid autocrat trying to consolidate power over a vast country. Not because he was a communist.
THAT is the reason why communism is better thought of in the West than Nazism: it's proponents have in many people's minds successfully detached the ideology from its real world results.
Stalin may be one example but I'd like you to please point out to me a single example of a communist country that turned out differently. The only arguable counter-example is China and that's because they've dropped centralized economic control in favor of philosophy that is arguably less activist than the Keynesian philosophy that dominates Western thinking. During full communist rule they were every bit as much of a totalitarian shithole as Russia was.
