demagogue on 16/1/2016 at 08:02
For the record, my point wasn't just that it happens, but this train line happens to be where it statistically happens the most on the entire planet (being the busiest line in the world's most populous city of the most suicidal culture), and that the sheer frequency of it sucks the meaning out of it, like how many times does it have to happen in a single week... It's not cynicism, it's numbness.
And I didn't feel actual anger. I was miffed because I'd miss my appointment, but no particular emotion towards anyone I didn't even know. It just fit the topic better to frame it that way. If anything, I felt abstract compassion. Wishing someone a send off from a beautiful cliff is more for their sake than mine.
It is part of the story that Japan goes out of its way to add needless formalism or frustration to make sure meaning is sucked out of practically every life event. To take another example, when people organize a picnic in the park, they literally schedule time to throw a frisbee or baseball, like you can't even allow that much spontaneity to just throw a ball around, and when you do it doesn't feel like having fun. It feeks like checking off a box on the picnic form. It's bizarre. I can imagine our dear Kolya, or at least his romantic younger self, could get really depressed here.
On the other hand people genuinely want to take care of each other, as misguided as they try. I've seen articles claiming it's the most purely socialist society in modern history and I'd believe it.
Kolya on 16/1/2016 at 09:37
I'm sorry, I should have worded that differently, because for the last year I have been commuting by train, which gave me time to think about this subject. And I caught myself seeing a person at the long end of the platform (multiple times) and thinking "Don't you dare fucking jump in front of that train. It's cold and I want to get home!" And then I realised that I was morally wrong. So I was mainly talking about myself, not wanting to call anyone an asshole here. Just to be clear. Now as for that beautiful cliff — I wouldn't want to be swimming below either, or taking a stroll or whatever. I mean that's just moving the problem, because there aren't as many remote and nice cliffs as necessary.
And yeah, self-optimising, which isn't limited to Japan but might very well be rampant there, would depress me if I fell for that. Because I don't understand it. I don't feel the need to check off activities but instead will schedule as much unscheduled time as I can. Having a whole day of absolutely nothing to do is my ideal day. Give me a few of those and it really gets my imagination rolling which I barely see anymore in day to day work life. Also Japan is weird.
voodoo47 on 17/1/2016 at 16:06
Quote Posted by faetal
the very concept of consequences
exactly - the only way of seeing the true nature of a man is in absence of consequence. if the last thing in his life he does is willingly choosing a way of exiting that will be douchy to literally hundreds of (random) people, then compassion is not what I'm going to feel.
I'd probably just be annoyed about one more person that has decided that not being a d!ck to his fellow man is not the path he wishes to take, and probably think something cynical like "at least this is the last time he'll be ruining someone's day". might sound cruel, but life is like that.
Yakoob on 17/1/2016 at 19:08
Hmm interesting topic. I have thought of suicide before (not in terms of intending, worry not), and haven't really thought of people in direct vicinity. Sure I'd worry about how my sister would take it or if it would hurt my friends, but not the random strangers on the street. I was more concerned with choosing a method that would be quickest, least painful, and smallest chance of leaving one a surviving vegetable in the hospital. Jumping off a building or in front of a train seemed like one of the better choices, but it frankly did not even occur to me to consider the impact on passerbyers.
Maybe I'm an asshole, maybe because suicide always felt like a personal thing to the one committing it (unless they are doing partly for "attention"). It's the same reason you may accidentally take too much space with your stuff in a coffee shop or unwittingly cut someone off because youre in a rush. You're not necessarily doing it to be a dick, but just forget to consider the impact, particularly when preoccupied or stressed. And true suicidees, ones well in the darkness of depression, anxiety, BP or a myriad of other mental problems, have A LOT more distracting unpleasantries occupying their mind than your average good conscious citizen joe.
People who are in good mental health and sufficient mental power to consider the feelings of fellow men if they chose to, usually do not commit suicide.
voodoo47 on 17/1/2016 at 21:20
I wouldn't be so sure.
faetal on 18/1/2016 at 12:13
I have a fair bit of personal experience that I'd prefer not to go into on here, but in my opinion, anyone who thinks that a person throwing themselves in front of a train is somehow selfish for their lack of alternative planning, either doesn't understand how suicidal thoughts work, or is wilfully being an asshole.
[EDIT] Before knee-jerking - have a think about this one point: how many of these people leave notes?
voodoo47 on 18/1/2016 at 14:36
in a way, suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness, bailing out and letting the rest of the world to deal with all your crap.
faetal on 18/1/2016 at 14:47
That doesn't merit a proper response.
Kolya on 18/1/2016 at 21:05
I don't know, deciding to keep on living is quite selfish, isn't it? What if you're an old fart, a vegetable in a hospital who costs a lot of money. In an overpopulated world. Speaking of that, deciding to get a child is very selfish. So is the decision not to get one. Buying a 4K plasma screen is extremely selfish!
Maybe selfishness just isn't a very good yardstick to judge suicide. Because unless you're living a life dedicated to altruism and poverty like Mother Theresia, you most likely are doing a million selfish things right now. (And it could be argued even she wasn't so altruistic.)
Albert Schweitzer once said: I am life that wants to live among life that wants to live.
What he meant was that although all life egoistically destroys other life in order to survive, humans are the only ones capable of understanding this and therefore have a special responsibility, to protect and support other life.
Sort of like we wish a God would look benevolently at his children and not misuse them.
Anyway, that quote is interesting for another reason: All living things want to live. It is ingrained in our DNA, it is the basis of everything we do, our whole society. Turning away from that principle is a feature only humans are capable of. It's a decision of the mind versus the body (and in consequence against itself). But the connection between mind and body is much stronger than we like to believe. Otherwise people who wish to die could simply stop breathing.
But it needs a trick to defeat that primal drive to live, an instrument. And here comes the train, or a gun or a pill or whatever. It's still a fight against yourself however, even if you're one of the few older people who want to die in a conclusive suicide, as opposed to the many young persons who kill themselves spontaneously in emotionally turmoil. It's never a completely rational decision that one considers and plans without fear, in cold blood.
And that's basically how you judge suicides in front of trains. Like someone pushing you aside when boarding the train, or taking your reserved place. But instead these people are caught in an emotional battle with themselves. And whether some commuters get to work on time simply isn't part of that, because the importance of such everyday occurrences diminishes when you're thinking to kill yourself. That's hardly egoistical. It's someone's darkest hour and it deserves some respect.
On a lighter note, here's (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfGMHL7CUPE) Don Thomas - Come on Train
fett on 19/1/2016 at 02:35
voodoo, I don't think it's always necessarily selfish. For myself, I see my kids being put through the ringer and missing out on their own childhood, as well as my wife's career on hold because of my chronic illness. I've not contemplated suicide but I can certainly see how they might be better off in the long run with my out of the picture.
