Frikkinjerk on 16/3/2006 at 09:35
Do you suppose the developers were trying to make a statement about religious equanimity, rationality, and tolerance in the Thief series?
In Thief: TDP the Pagans followed a zealous Trickster who wanted to dominate the hearts of men through fear. Clearly, not all the Pagans or their religion itself are to blame for what he was doing. For example, when Garrett enters the Maw in Thief 2 he notes that it's different. It's different because the Trickster had corrupted it and now it has returned to it's normal state.
I know that the game insinuates that the Trickster is THE Pagan god (Woodsie Lord), but I don't think he is. Rather, I think he's probably one of many Pagan deities not mentioned due to relevancy to the game's unfolding storyline. In Shintoism, for example, deities are often local and not worshipped or even known to those outside of the community that worships it. Maybe he wasn't even THE Trickster that was defeated previously according to the game lore. The Dalai Lama, for example, is believed to be the incarnation of a Bodhisattva (an enlightened being who forgoes nirvana to help others). Perhaps the Trickster is a reincarnation of the Woodsie Lord, or maybe even a pretender to that title. As far as being a pretender goes, religious scholars have noted that there were so-called Messiah's trying to fill a prophecy by the Hebrew's prior to the appearance of Jesus Christ.
In Thief II it's a Hammer named Karras who leads other Hammers astray to form a new sect with a diabolical plan of their own to gain control. Pagans are hunted and slaughtered for being Pagan despite their seemingly peaceful, even quaint life-style. Of course, Karras is going all Jim Jones with the spiked grape Flavor-Aid whereas the Trickster was much more ...sane.
I might also add, as it's an oddity to me, that the Pagan lord was firmly depicted in the game. The Builder, on the other hand, was never depicted. Their god never makes any sort of materialization, yet holds a more powerful grasp over the game world's inhabitants than that of the Pagans. Just interesting I think.
So, did LGS intend to bookend the story with the two religious circles each succumbing to the same frailty in exploration of their devotion? Followers of sometimes benign religions going apeshit because their own belief's cloud their judgement? Victoria comes to mind here. She clearly believed in the Trickster, yet she ultimately sacrificed herself proving she was at her core good and not otherwise. A lesson maybe for an after school special? Or imagined delusions of one who has played too much Thief?
Fig455 on 16/3/2006 at 10:37
IIRC, the Builder is believed by some to simply be a mortal human that had a sort of exceptional power/charisma. If that's the case, he would be long dead, hence his absence from the games.
Raven on 16/3/2006 at 16:11
What really did piss me off was the chalice, the bread and wine that you can find in one of the hammer temples in thief 3 by an alter...
Frikkinjerk on 16/3/2006 at 18:12
Quote Posted by Fig455
IIRC, the Builder is believed by some to simply be a mortal human that had a sort of exceptional power/charisma. If that's the case, he would be long dead, hence his absence from the games.
Like a sort of Prometheus with a hammer instead of a torch? The sense of it that I got was that he was closer to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic notion of a supreme being. In those religions the depiction of god is rarely, if ever, made physical in religious iconography. Offhand I can't think of any other religions that necessarily avoid depicting the god of their worship.
Brother Reginald on 16/3/2006 at 19:50
The Mechanists seemed to depict the Buildar as the shape of an avenging angel, as seen in most mechanist-based missions. (This might be wrong it's just my interpretation.) The Hammers don't depict their God at all, suggesting that they believe that he's a lot more spiritual-like and ultimately powerful, as opposed to a relatively less powerful corporeal figure.
I think the Trickster is the Pagan's main god, though they might have more. Interestingly, the worship of the Trickster is far from new, the precursers of the City seemed to be involved with him, as well as the Kurshoks in TDS.
T-Smith on 16/3/2006 at 20:18
Quote Posted by Brother Reginald
I think the Trickster is the Pagan's main god, though they might have more. Interestingly, the worship of the Trickster is far from new, the precursers of the City seemed to be involved with him, as well as the Kurshoks in TDS.
I don't recall any other 'God' ever being spoken of during the course of the series, in regards to the Pagans. The Trickster is their God, and the only one they worship. There are certain individuals high up in the Pagan system who have power and who are respected - Viktoria, then Dyan, and the leader of their military - Larkspur. But otherwise, it's all about The Trickster. As for how far back The Pagans and their worship of The Trickster goes - no clue, although it certainly predates The City by far.
Random_Taffer on 16/3/2006 at 20:45
Quote Posted by Frikkinjerk
Pagans are hunted and slaughtered for being Pagan despite their seemingly peaceful, even quaint life-style. Of course, Karras is going all Jim Jones with the spiked grape Flavor-Aid whereas the Trickster was much more ...sane.
Much more sane? Not at all! They're both nuts, but one is just a man. It just so happens that you catch the trickster early in his plans.
Karass wanted to destroy all the plants and such, and the Trickster wanted to unleash an evil army of beasts upon the earth. (though I'm not sure why.)
Bottom line, I don't think the Trickster is smarter, nor saner than Karass...
He just has a less annoying voice...
Spike700 on 17/3/2006 at 02:08
IIRC, the Trickster wanted to rid the planet of anything related to the builder.
The Pagans seem to consider themselves differant from the general population, people who live within the city, even if only using what the 'Builder' provided are considered "Manfools"
I don't really think you can really compare religion in thief to any in our world. Tho the closest may be God and Devil, the Trickster being the latter.
Jarkko Ranta on 17/3/2006 at 06:55
Builder beeing once a man would explain greatly the Builder's First Apprentice or what's it called in DITBH (god I love that mission).
And - remember the intro to that mission (my favourite intro BTW) - people worshipped "horned dude" and other dudes under the sign of hammer chaised "horned dude" away and "horned dude" went through the portal. Reminds of me the Spanish conquistadors freeing natives from "corruptions of gold to save their souls". Also, althou Trickster betrays Garrett he isn't that selfish (remember the Trickster books from Escape!). In D&D scale chaotic neutral would picture Woodsie fine.
Trickster might even be less self-centered than the idol Hammerites worship. I think it is the Builder who has changed more, when compared modern Hammers to those like Murus, Renault and Martell.
S_Hole on 17/3/2006 at 23:04
it's not that they're religions.. but what they represent
both games have the exact same story
a "prophet" of it's cause arises to perform their ultimate religious agenda
trickster, a deity of such of the pagan world with it's magical and animalistic powers, seeking uncontrolled natural chaos
karras, a priest of hammerites with his superior logical intelligence, seeking to eliminate all chaos in the machine and make everything click controlled like clockwork
it's a sort of parallel to our current lives, really
we are biological machines of ridiculous amounts of chaos
it's a wonder we can be as sane as we are - evolution did some remarkable job on animals of our caliber
to the extent that we have minds logical enough to create machines and social networks into conventions that control our lives more than we control them
and we're the only species on earth that has technology that can replace natural solutions to issues
we have pills, we have heart transplants... hell, we have artificial cybernetic eyes
we've climbed a long way from a puddle in an ocean, constructed by natural chaos and have soon controlled evolution
it's just a question of how much of a machine we will evolve ourselves
personally i'm rooting for the "mechanists" in that we could have fully cybernetic bodies within the next 200 years
and i guess religiously the game's story still has quite a bit of relevance today
especially with the whole stem cell debacle and all - blocking human evolution (yea, there's some intelligent design for ya right there)
it's interresting to note that modern religions have more in common with the pagans than the hammers
and that pagans live in huts of turd and mechanists have miles high towers of steel
