DarkElf_Mairead on 18/3/2006 at 00:21
Quote Posted by Raven
What really did piss me off was the chalice, the bread and wine that you can find in one of the hammer temples in thief 3 by an alter...
What's that? I don't remember those.
Quote:
For example, when Garrett enters the Maw in Thief 2 he notes that it's different.
How did he know that was the maw? It didn't look anything like it.
metal dawn on 18/3/2006 at 00:26
Quote Posted by DarkElf_Mairead
How did he know that was the maw?
Maybe because he had to jump through a strange portal to get there... by jumping into Constantine's mouth (more or less).
Random_Taffer on 18/3/2006 at 01:51
Due to poor technology Garrett had to evolve an excellent sense of direction. :p
Frikkinjerk on 18/3/2006 at 07:31
Quote Posted by DarkElf_Mairead
What's that? I don't remember those.
How did he know that was the maw? It didn't look anything like it.
No, it didn't and Garrett says something like,"is this the Maw? It's different." I'm totally paraphrasing, but he does say it.
As far as your take on it, S_Hole, I don't think the developers had anything nearly as philosophical in mind when writing it as what you're suggesting. Nor do I think either the Trickster or Karras were attempting the "ultimate religious agenda". The Hammerites didn't like Karras. If he was their prophet and his agenda was theirs then he would not have had to break off into his very own Koreshian compound and whip up an end of the world device that would not have just killed Pagans, but a whole lot of city folk, including the Hammers. The Pagans can be forgiven for following a brute like the Trickster, if they even ever really did, because they've been on the foul end of the Hammers shitty stick for quite some time.
I also don't like this comparison that the Trickster is the devil and the Builder is 'god'. First, that's insinuating too much of aspects of a certain real world religion into a game that people of various backgrounds happen to play. It doesn't say "Thief: The Christian Project" on the game box.
Secondly, the Pagans clearly live peaceful, humble lives raising children and scratching out a living just as everyone else does. If the Trickster was of evil intent then his followers would certainly be of evil intent as well. Do devil worshippers love their children? And if they do then they can't really be evil, can they? (Remember the ghosts from Thief 2)
On the flip side, the Hammers carry Sledgehammers and demand authority and respect for their way of life from everyone. They are a violent, male dominated religious order. Are there even any women in the Hammer order? Victoria proves that the Pagans don't have that disparity between the sexes. She's the right-hand of a guy who wants to turn the clock back on man to a time when he respected, and feared, the natural world. Really, man should fear and respect the natural world. Man dies quickly when he doesn't. (For instance, Yogi Bear is cute, but real bears can and will tear your face off. So, don't let your 5 year old feed bears when you come across one when camping, stupid.)
Solabusca on 18/3/2006 at 15:04
Quote Posted by Random_Taffer
Much more sane? Not at all! They're both nuts, but one is just a man. It just so happens that you catch the trickster early in his plans.
Karass wanted to destroy all the plants and such, and the Trickster wanted to unleash an evil army of beasts upon the earth. (though I'm not sure why.)
Actually, Karras wanted to destroy everything
organic, leaving only the cold purity of metal, gear and cog - and him, being the Builder's Chosen. Everything organic was deeply flawed, to him.
The Trickster, on the other hand, wanted to completely eliminate all of Humanity's technological advances, to drive them back to the stone age technologically, where men huddled around the fires at night, dreading what might be out in the dark. The Trickster was of the mind that all the advances, the lights and walls, had robbed him of the fear and awe that he, as the avatar of Nature, was due.
.j.
Frikkinjerk on 19/3/2006 at 05:58
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
I would say that the Maw underwent a transition after the Trickster's death. Perhaps - due to Viktoria's ascension in
TMA - some members think that she altered the Maw herself. For a recent discussion on the Builder's and Trickster's origins, see this thread: (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102286)
Yea. I suggested previously in this thread that the Trickster likely had corrupted the Maw and his death merely brought balance back to it. I also suggested that Victoria was essentially good. If she was now in control of the Maw then it would make sense that it reflected her good nature.
I remember thinking that the Maw at the end of TDP reminded me of Germans marching in preparation for an invasion because the beasties just kept filing on in a very steady, almost militaristic manner. With their leader dead and the plans ruined they simply returned to whatever homes they keep. Just like in real life when nationalist fervor wanes and tranquility returns to the public conscience. The bitter words, angry bumper stickers, and mindless flag-waving disappears and the general good nature of people returns. That's what I think happened to the Maw.
I don't quite understand that other thread so I'll pass on it.
Jarkko Ranta on 19/3/2006 at 17:28
BTW, what do you guys know about Dyan and Larkspur and the others (dryads?). I first finished the Metal Age, so I partly lost the idea of the cinematic where Garrett enters Viktoria's glade and is soon surrounded by the two women (at first sight I thought we're gonna beat up Mosley... I couldn't recognize their faces with that 'who do you wanna fight with'-thing) After TDP is still don't have the sleightest clue about them. Really rallies my mood up...
Spike700 on 19/3/2006 at 20:08
Quote Posted by Frikkinjerk
I also don't like this comparison that the Trickster is the devil and the Builder is 'god'. First, that's insinuating too much of aspects of a certain real world religion into a game that people of various backgrounds happen to play. It doesn't say "Thief: The Christian Project" on the game box.
Secondly, the Pagans clearly live peaceful, humble lives raising children and scratching out a living just as everyone else does. If the Trickster was of evil intent then his followers would certainly be of evil intent as well. Do devil worshippers love their children? And if they do then they can't really be evil, can they? (Remember the ghosts from Thief 2)
You read way to much into my post, I was not implying any Christian beliefs. Just two gods, as to which is which would clearly depend on the point of view being considered, it is clear that to the Hammers the Trickster is the root of all evil.
After reading the other thread linked to above, I wonder if Religion is really the right word, maybe cult would be closer to the truth. If you think about it, in a world where magic abounds, and the undead are a fact of life, it really isn't a strech to believe that the Trickster is nothing more than a mortal with a huge amount of magical power, or at least his corporeal form could have been.
The builder could also have been a mortal, thrust into godly-hood by retellings/writings of his accomplishments, or even just a symbol of human intelligence.
If the Trickster/Builder were true deities would the other people in The City not fear them? Or at least uphold thier definition of right and wrong? The Hammers have, on a few occasions, criticized the laws of The City.
Yametha on 19/3/2006 at 23:50
No, I'd say that religion is just the right word. After all, what is a god? Is there anything about being a god that says you have to be immortal? Or that they have not to be feared? Isn't it just as implying of Christian beliefs if you think that nothing is a god if it's not a clone of the one that the Christians/Muslims/Jews believe in?
Frikkinjerk on 22/3/2006 at 09:46
Quote Posted by Jarkko Ranta
BTW, what do you guys know about Dyan and Larkspur and the others (dryads?). I first finished the Metal Age, so I partly lost the idea of the cinematic where Garrett enters Viktoria's glade and is soon surrounded by the two women (at first sight I thought we're gonna beat up Mosley... I couldn't recognize their faces with that 'who do you wanna fight with'-thing) After TDP is still don't have the sleightest clue about them. Really rallies my mood up...
They're just like Victoria, I think. She asks Garrett if he wishes to fight her "Thistle maids" or the "Sycamore". I think she works with human Pagans too though. Wasn't there a Pagan freezing to death in a food locker in Thief 2 who was on a mission for Victoria?
In that same cutscene she talks about wanting to avenge the death of a friend. She's talking about the Trickster. She says friend, and not god, or lord (though she does refer to him as lord,not necessarily meant in a divine sense, in TDP), or any other authoratative title. In TDP Victoria states that she and Constantine are "old associates". This suggests she must have known him before the Hammers defeated him hundreds of years ago.
There are some real religions with no godhead or otherwise singular supreme being. *cough* Buddhism *cough*. My impression of the Pagans is that they have no supreme being, while the Hammers have the Builder.
