SolidAndShade on 27/7/2006 at 23:54
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
Constantine is not an avatar of the Trickster. A common attribute of trickster mythology around the world is the ability of the trickster deity to be able to shape–shift into other forms, whether coyotes, birds or humans. It's interesting that members so often point to the body of Constantine as an avatar - and never insisting that therefore Viktoria is also used a woman as her avatar. It would be inconsistent if her transition from a human to true form was an inherent ability, while the Trickster had to look for an old man to sap.
I think Viktoria is an avatar as well, originally a mage who bonded herself to the power of the Queen of the Woods. The reason I suspect that Constantine and Vik started out as mortals and became avatars of their respective gods was also explained; Constantine had books on magic in his mansion, which the Trickster would hardly need to study, and the game dialog and mission objectives refer to him as "Constantine" right up until the end of the game.
In the first cutscene we see that he collects strange artifacts, not all of them nature-related, and I can't think of much reason for the Trickster to do that either. His history and demeanor suggest to me that he was once an ordinary mortal but changed over time into a human reflection of the Trickster. I think it's a good explanation for why his powers are dependent on the Eye, which connects him to the plane where the true Trickster exists, and why the Eye had those reality-warping, undead-summoning powers when it was in the Cathedral.
And to Goldmoon, yes the Trickster was always a god, long before the time of Constantine, but since I think Constantine was an avatar, his intention with the Eye was to truly become one with the Trickster and be able to walk in the phsyical world with the full power of that god. The historical information we read in-game suggests that humans have been the major players in the history of the world, and that supernatural entities like the Trickster and Builder win and lose battles only through their followers in the physical world. If Constantine had completed his ritual, a genuine god in the flesh would be present in the world for the first time.
But I doubt LG thought of much of this; it's just an explanation I came up with and found to be logically consistent. Hopefully you find it interesting.
SD on 28/7/2006 at 00:20
Quote Posted by Ardesco
That is an AWESOME word! It doesn't get enough use in everyday language.
It doesn't get much use because it doesn't exist. That's something of a barrier to a word's chances of being uttered in everyday conversation!
ganac on 28/7/2006 at 00:49
Doppelganger (n)
a ghostly counterpart of a person; a ghostly double of a living person
Etymology: German doppel `double' + ganger `goer'
Usage: also doppelgaenger
Doppleganged is not real, because it is 'el' instead of 'le', and has no '-ed' suffix.
Solabusca on 28/7/2006 at 01:24
So, SolidandShade, have you played TDS at all?
.j.
Goldmoon Dawn on 28/7/2006 at 01:47
Quote Posted by SolidAndShade
And to Goldmoon, yes the Trickster was always a god, long before the time of Constantine, but since I think Constantine was an avatar, his intention with the Eye was to truly become one with the Trickster and be able to walk in the phsyical world with the full power of that god. The historical information we read in-game suggests that humans have been the major players in the history of the world, and that supernatural entities like the Trickster and Builder win and lose battles only through their followers in the physical world. If Constantine had completed his ritual, a genuine god in the flesh would be present in the world for the first time.
The only thing that bothers me about all that is the timeframe. The story suggests quite plainly that Constantine arrives as a new face in The City. His main motivation seems to be sending Garrett on a quest to steal one of his own belongings, and then after the testing sends him to get the Eye. Once he gets the Eye, he *then* becomes the Trickster, runs away to the Maw where "I alone, standsy then in the greens infested Maw, and speedsy out his judgements on the weeds and writhing manfools". All Hell breaks loose, Garrett is the only one who knows that the Trickster is not only real, but alive and well. Then the games shifts it's focus as you convince the Guards that the Trickster is back, track down this Trickster where you find him in the greens infested in full demon form dancing around the invocation pod performing the ritual of the void.
You would have to adjust it a little, like Constantine tricks Garrett into getting this Eye for him, because he had been researching it in those books and knew once he got his hands on it, he would become the Trickster by getting just totally possessed by the Eye (The Cutscene).
:ebil:
Goldmoon Dawn on 28/7/2006 at 02:01
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
It doesn't get much use because it doesn't exist. That's something of a barrier to a word's chances of being uttered in everyday conversation!
And dear, dear Strontium Dog. :)
For some reason, the dopplegangers next to the temple in Bard's Tale came to mind. I don't mind taking little risks, here or there, and thought I'de chance using it. Look Mr. grumpy britches, don't think you can just .... just because you ...... Hold novice. Lemme see tha...wait a minute! Thou art no true novice?!?!
Guards!!
Execute these fools, immedietly!!!!
SolidAndShade on 28/7/2006 at 03:41
Quote Posted by Solabusca
So, SolidandShade, have you
played TDS at all?
.j.
Nope, just TDP and MA, so don't spoil me yet. I know the supernatural side of the world is explored in more depth in that game, so is there something in there that contradicts these ideas? Yes/no answer only, please..
DarthMRN on 28/7/2006 at 09:12
Well, if SolidandShade is wrong, as some suggests, then I am truly dissappointed in the level of power this so-called god displays at the end of the Maw. He even used a little while to kill G after trapping him.
And if that is the limit of godly power in the Thief universe, then the Master Builder must be an equally sore excuse for a deity to worship. Stupid Hammers.
And this of course suggests that the current gods were not able to create the world. Someone else must have done it, and then either died, been forgotten or did not care about the Trickster and Master Builder having a feud with each other.
Personally I have a hard time believing any of those, and I think the Thief universe can do without another level of diety.
Goldmoon Dawn on 28/7/2006 at 20:41
I really like this fiction, especially the part about the young Constantine and Viktoria being good magic users. I thought about that sometimes too. Yet, if it alters the known story it becomes more about the author than the game. I say just make the idea fit the storyline better. Although, I cant really see Constantine tricking The Trickster. He seemed more than ready to fulfill himself. :ebil:
SolidAndShade on 28/7/2006 at 22:17
I don't know that it alters the known story, since the origins of Constantine and Viktoria are never really stated. Most players infer that Constanine was just a form the Trickster took, but there's nothing saying that's the case. And I don't think Constantine tricked the Trickster... that being was probably eager to have an earthly avatar after losing most of its worshippers. If anything, the Trickster tricked Constantine. It may be that the mage simply wanted to draw power away from the Trickster while keeping his personality intact, but that the Trickster erased Constantine's personality and completely overrode his individual will.
