Goldmoon Dawn on 3/8/2006 at 02:23
On that note,
I have a feeling that our SolidAndShade fellow hath abandoned the cause!
That leaves Darth and, um, Mr. ExtraWideAuthorColumns to take up the cause?
I hope Darth does the right thing, and simply converts to complete Dark Project loyalty, and abandons this cause of Solids.
Mr. EWAC?
Gosh, who knows what will become of him? Time may be less forgiving than the budding dreams of yet another wouldbe "Dromeder". Will he succeed in his righteous quest to explain the Trickster to us via FM?
Or will time forget him.
:eek:
Ya know? I'm not sure if you are capable of contributing to The Dark Mod or not, but the doors are always open for new converts to Dark Project.
Thou needst only apply within.
(with in game, that is)
:ebil:
See you at the Cloister, Taffer.
Biohazard on 3/8/2006 at 07:20
We are going to play nice in here, aren't we? :grr:
Werewolfintheshadows on 3/8/2006 at 09:49
I partly agree with goldmoon dawn, except that *anything* is rarely made known "in game" - most of the storyline develops because of the cutscenes/videos and the pre-mission briefs.
In this he is referred to several times as a God and by Garret himself, so I always got the impression that it was supposed to be pretty much a given - otherwise you can pretty much forget garrett's history of poverty, his introduction to time with the keepers or the entire storyline of TDP being anything but false. Plus it made sense the hammerites had their "god" and the pagans had theirs, it's all neatly rounded off in TDS, pick a side, pick a god.
From what we've seen i.e. nothing, of the builder, I'd place more faith in the existence of the builder rather than the trickster as a god, but basically we're just covering old ground - like I said before zylon interrupted, everyone has their own interpretation, just like for the bible, everyone has a take on it, well except zylon, in true thief fashion he tries to steal others - punched his own ticket Pavelock.
Plus I didn't mock either, especially the builder, I'm hammerite through and through, they believe in backing up your work:laff: - " these art only needed lest the main workings shouldst go a wry."
Werewolfintheshadows on 3/8/2006 at 09:52
On a further note to solabusca: I haven't claimed to have released any fm's. I have created them, we had problems with dromed at the time and it crashed one of our pc's and took us back to year 0 and it was on the cusp of DS so we're making the transition - as I hope more people will do quickly as the TDS fm board is found wanting.
DarthMRN on 3/8/2006 at 12:32
Wherewolf, increase the level of grammar in your posts. It will go a long way in rising you above Zylon.
Well, all arguments taken into consideration, the Pro-Trickster party can (just barely) cling to their version, because it could actually hold water, even though you need an overactive imagination and hardcore TTLG-style interpretation to get past the obvious signs in the game: that LGS presented him as a god, all the while making him a deity in the least powerful sense of the word imaginable.
Yet, people are free to think what they want, so I suggest you unclench your fists, Zylon, because you are really pushing my buttons here.
The Hammers clearly presented the Trickster as their "devil-character". Even looting their main temple revealed no evidence of any other gods. Somebody said there was a large number of lesser gods for every Zeus and Odin, and that the Trickster fit into this category, but if so, then where are the other gods?
You claim he is a god, yet a really weak one. But still, by all accounts, he is the arch-enemy of the Builder and the Hammers, with no other greater or lesser diety mentioned. So what is the conclusion? Is the Builder just really weak, since his arch enemy is a guy with minor magical power and his own vacation spot; or did it simply not fit the game to include any mention of the other gods?
The first answer rises the question of who the real gods are then, and why no one whorships them in stead of a couple of near-mortals. Are they are forgotten or dead? As if. That is as much fanon as I have ever heard. You are hard pressed to make an argument based upon fan conjecture rather than evidence. There is nothing to suggest there was ever any other gods, or that they died or was forgotten. There is, however, evidence of a religion worshipping one diety and fearing another, only to have the latter show up in real-life. That is pretty telling IMO.
The second is an obvious attempt at clinging to straws. And serious fanon. Real-life concerns like storyline, budget and system limitations never had any place in discussions like this, so keep your credibility and don't even argue this point.
This is the game, people. Any deviation is not discussion of possibilities. It is the discussion of possibilities based on conjecture.
DarthMRN on 3/8/2006 at 12:59
Summary:
My assumption: There are only two gods. One or both were responsible for the creation of the Thief universe. One is the arch-enemy of the other.
Your assumption: There are a bunch of other gods, the Trickster is a minor one.
Evidence: The Trickster exists. This may or may not prove the Builder exist as well. No other dieties are mentioned.
My assumption: The Trickster is an avatar, based upon his lack of power, which according to my above opinion, is unfit to suit a god of such magnitude.
Your assumption: The Trickster is a weak god, either because the Builder is weak or because he doesn't exist at all, because a world-creator would have no problem destroying such a foe. Based upon your above opinion, neither created the world, becuase there was a buch of other, more powerful gods to do it.
Evidence: The Trickster is weak, and is the only supernatural (by Thief-universe standards) creature mentioned by the Hammers.
Both could be true, but one sticks with evidence and canon slightly more than the other.
Solabusca on 3/8/2006 at 14:14
DarthMRN, your assumption is intrinsically flawed. Reference is made to the Trickster being ONE OF the old gods. ONE OF a pantheon that has been supplanted by the Hammerite church.
There is a real-world comparison; when the Christian church was embraced in Rome, the old gods were forgotten and outlawed. As it spread, it did it's best to eliminate other faiths - a very different attitude than that taken by the Roman Empire prior to it's conversion.
So I have no problem with believing that the Hammerite church came into being and began ruthlessly persecuting those that followed the old faith once it gained a modicum of political power.
.j.
ZylonBane on 3/8/2006 at 14:22
Quote Posted by DarthMRN
Wherewolf, increase the level of grammar in your posts. It will go a long way in rising you above Zylon.
Oh, har har. The only way he'll rise anywhere is if he drops the troll routine. Or have you already forgotten that you're addressing the same person who said, in all seriousness--
Quote:
Ok, apart from the fact so many people here seem to just quote other people which is basically a cop out from coming up with your own ideas.... I honestly don't need to be quoted back to myself, it's either a sign you are lazy or forgetful, neither is good is it?
Come ON now. There's no point at all in attempting to reason with someone who's brain is that scrambled.
Never mind the fact that he stubbornly sticks to his notion of what the word "god" means, in spite of everyone else throwing references in his face that say he's wrong.
themetalian on 3/8/2006 at 14:59
Quote Posted by Biohazard
We are going to play nice in here, aren't we? :grr:
I think they prefer playing hard than playing nice :cheeky:
Solabusca on 3/8/2006 at 15:47
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Come ON now. There's no point at all in attempting to reason with someone who's brain is that scrambled.
Did you miss the mapping thread bits where he claimed the Mapping crew were at war with FM makers?
Or the spurious claims to long-term contributions to the site (under different handles, of course)?
Hell, even this thread has a great claim:
Quote:
The Thief world is set in medieval Europe - don't believe me? It's quoted by the creators of the game. So everyone who said it's meant to take place in parallel universe, like a primitive velrsion of Sliders, should go double their dosage.
... I'd really, really like to see the proof of that. Unless, of course, the designer said it privately to our boy Werewolf.
Anyways, out of respect to Biohazard's wishes, I'm going to try to adhere to my first response to this person and enact my own personal Ignore List function.
But damn, it's so hard to resist feeding the little underbridge folk.
.j.
