Rogue Keeper on 3/4/2006 at 15:41
Then, since we are discussing fantastic fiction, we can't adopt strict, universally valid logic rules. Logic and rules of any fantastic fictive world are limited only by imagination of it's creator. If you create a fictive world, you create it's rules, you create it's logic, not the audience to which you present it. Audience can only accept or refuse your vision - but you don't have to care. Similarly if I'd create a fictive world and you wouldn't like this or that in such world because it's not realistic, well then thanks for opinion, but it makes sense to me, because the world is based on my logic.
That's why I don't make useless rants about scars and glowing eyes. It is pointless, and it's too late for it anyway - it's done so. He didn't have a scar before? So what, just because we don't see it in one foggy cutscene? Maybe he has it even if I didn't see it before. I can imagine he had it before.
Yes, actually G. looks much better in T3. Why not? He's a veteran thief, scarred not only physically, but also mentally. Charisma gained by physical suffering and experience of horrors in his life. The best thief ever the world has never seen. His charisma emits through his creepiness, aloofness, asocial attitude, pragmatism, certain deviation called kleptomania and weakness for valuable objects. And all this reflects on his appearance, too. Why not?
In fantastic fiction, fantasy is all what matters. That's why children enjoy tales much more than adults. They are not burdened by logic and rationalism and superfluous thoughts about realism in completely unrealistic environment, they are more willing to accept a game of the storyteller. That's why certain definition of SciFi says: Golden Age of Science Fiction is 13 years.
You don't control rules of the Thief universe and neither I do.
We can either accept it as it is or not - just like any other artwork.
sparhawk on 3/4/2006 at 16:35
Quote Posted by BR796164
Similarly if I'd create a fictive world and you wouldn't like this or that in such world because it's not
realistic, well then thanks for opinion, but it makes sense to me, because the world is based on my logic.
You are not free though, in what you can come up with. As I explained earlier, once you create a specific universe you are bound to it and it's rules. Making up new rules later, to accomodate new plotlines, is bad design in many cases. A good example is one of these soap operas, my wife likes to watch. In one episode there was a new character introduced. The new character was supposed to be the father of several, long established characters, but he was supposed to have gone off to the US and never cared for his children until he suddenly came back and became the caring and loving father. Of course such a story CAN happen, it's not totally unrealistic within the rules of this universe. But doing things like that is still bad story design, because it gives the player/watcher the feeling that this was just made up to cover some unfinished thoughts of the author. Now if the characters would have asked every now and then for their father, and they would have gotten a response like that he had simply gone off, then it would be much more believable because it doesn't feel as contrived.
Another good example is a story in a fantasy world I once read. There was a party with several actors. One of them was a bum who was taggin along with the main party. In three books he never once did more than givning a comment every now and then. But at the end of the last book, the main actors got into some troubles where I really wondered how they could come out of (whithin their limits). They didn't. The bum suddenly turned out to be the most powerefull mage in the world, and magicked them away, thus saving them. Needles to say that I found this ending quite unsatisfactorily, because I always had the feeling that the author made this up because he didn't want to bother to think up a more believable plot, and wanted to get it finished. Consequently, while reading this book, I was always wondering what this character was about. He didn't have a role there, and after reading the end, it was confirmed that he was only needed for this single event.
Of course the author can do stunts like that, but then he has to take the criticism, because not every reader or player accepts such lame excuses. I have no problem with fantasy settings and appropriate fantastic solutions, as long as they are belivable with the specified realm.
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That's why I don't make useless rants about scars and glowing eyes. It is pointless, and it's too late for it anyway - it's done so. He didn't have a scar before? So what, just because we don't see it in one foggy cutscene? Maybe he has it even if I didn't see it before. I can
imagine he had it before.
Well, you are more the simple type, who accepts everything blindly, what some devs will throw at him. Other people are not so easily fooled with, and demand a more thought through approach. To each his own. If I get such lame excuses I feel ripped off, because it gives me the feeling that the author doesn't try to sell me a good product, instead he just makes up whatever crosses his mind at the moment and tries to get money from me for it.
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Yes, actually G. looks much better in T3.
He doesn't look better. IMO he look much more lame. At least if your definition of "better" is not strictly limited to the number of polygons.
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Why not? He's a veteran thief, scarred not only physically, but also mentally.
Why not? Because it is a continuity error. As simple as that. In the same vein you could say that the main character suddenly turns into a women. He went through this change in the time that was not seen by the player.
Anything that happens in between some series, and is not told, is just an error in continuity, unless this is not a logical consequence of the story.
Rogue Keeper on 4/4/2006 at 07:19
Certainly. Certainly all that is only your personal opinion which isn't necessarily valid outside of your cerebral cortex. Also, improve your offending ability and übermensch attitude, you're still quite weak in this area.
sparhawk on 4/4/2006 at 09:08
You might work on your blind fanboyish area also. I know that you are a TDS fanboy and therefore defend everything about it, no matter wether it makes sense or not.
One might define your axioms like this:
1. Thouh shalt not ciritize Thief.
2. Thief developers are gods. There shallt be no critizisms from mere mortals towards them.
3. Gods can not err.
4. Thou shallt not have bad opinions about any aspects of Thief.
5. Mere players shall be gratefull for anything the gods deign to give unto them.
Soul Shaker on 4/4/2006 at 10:12
Oh, i just realised. Yes, Deadly Shadows is really deadly. I'm on my second time through the cradle, and i'm still shit scared. My heart rate is excessive, and even though I know there's nothing around that corner there or anything, I can't help but quickly move between cover and shadows.
So, yes, it is quite deadly. Heart attacks kill people ya know. And it may have yet to claim another victim...
Rogue Keeper on 4/4/2006 at 10:35
Quote Posted by sparhawk
You might work on your blind fanboyish area also. I know that you are a TDS fanboy and therefore defend everything about it, no matter wether it makes sense or not.
One might define your axioms like this:
1. Thouh shalt not ciritize Thief.
2. Thief developers are gods. There shallt be no critizisms from mere mortals towards them.
3. Gods can not err.
4. Thou shallt not have bad opinions about any aspects of Thief.
5. Mere players shall be gratefull for anything the gods deign to give unto them.
1. Disagree
2. Disagree
3. Disagree
4. Disagree
5. Disagree
Just a matter of principe, I don't think there is anything wrong or sinful with being a fanboy.
You probably didn't notice it, but I have criticized Thief and DXIW a lot in the past, here and elsewhere. I am well aware of it's flaws. Truth about me is that I like to accept opposite positions in discussions which seem to me too biased to one side or another. Regardless of my true opinion.
Another truth is that I learned not to take Thief universe way too seriously. I am taught to be grateful even for small good things, because I'm always aware things could be much worse.
I could write a juicy critical tractate about TDS again, repeating the same facts over and over again but why should I bother? This topic is full of it. What sense it would have, ranting to infinity? Would the publisher and developers listen and care? No.
I wish I could debate Thief with you in person, really.
jtbalogh on 4/4/2006 at 13:34
... learned ... not to take Thief universe way too seriously ...
So you do acknowledge what's wrong but have given up, which is why others now have to carry the torch to make thief better while you wait around. Throwing that burden off your shoulders can be a relief and let's you be grateful for small things. If you are truly grateful for small things, then you would stop arguing and be happy for people that fix the small things in the game. While you are free to avoid stress, let others focus their stress to continue and make the game better and historically accurate -- even if it takes years. :)
Rogue Keeper on 4/4/2006 at 14:19
Quote Posted by jtbalogh
So you do acknowledge what's wrong but have given up, which is why others now have to carry the torch to make thief better while you wait around.
Throwing that burden off your shoulders can be a relief and let's you be grateful for small things. If you are truly grateful for small things, then you would stop arguing and be happy for people that fix the small things in the game.
I am not "arguing", I am discussing.
I am grateful for good small things that were made by the Ion Storm team as well as for improvements of the fan community. I like new textures for example, great work of JohnP. TDS Tweaker is an useful thing too, but I don't want to tweak everything, because some other features I prefer as they are by default. Ion Storm could screw up more. They could have forget about previous games completely and rebuild Thief universe beyond recognition - and find a completely new audience. If for example Garrett had a scar diagonally across his face and not,
then I would be seriously disappointed about continuity errors.
Then TDS would be a real
catastrophy for fans.
That's why I hold conviction that it ended as good as it could, under given circumstances, demands of the publisher and trends in gaming industry. That's what I meant by "being grateful for good small things." I don't think ISA owes me anything. How to formulate it even better...? How about this: If I would be a natural born whiner, constantly nitpicking every small thing to oblivion, I think I wouldn't deserve
any Thief sequel, even if I had money to physically purchase all copies of it.
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While you are free to avoid stress, let others focus their stress to continue and make the game better and historically accurate -- even if it takes years. :)
Am I objecting anyone from doing so? But the most diligent people usually don't have much time for nitpicking.
sparhawk on 4/4/2006 at 19:46
Quote Posted by BR796164
If for example Garrett had a scar diagonally across his face and not,
then I would be seriously disappointed about continuity errors.
I guess I can only say again what I already posted in other threads. Teh scar itself is irrelevenat, as are many of the other details. It's the sum of them though, that makes it bad, even though the game still was ok, overall.
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Am I objecting anyone from doing so? But the most diligent people usually don't have much time for nitpicking.
If that is aimed at me, I can assure you that dilligence doesn't have much to do with it. :) Even though currently I'm not working as much on the Darkmod, as I would like to, I can assure you that even at my most diligent time, my nitpicking and posting frequency hasn't changed that much. I'm a fast typer, so I can type a lot in between while waiting for the compiler to finish. ;)
Viners_an_Leafs on 6/4/2006 at 23:21
After the trickster was gone , I found the Villans from the following thief games rather easy, and i wasnt to interested in them either , that is except their valuables...Also i found nothing deadly about "deadly Shadows" dont get me wrong I love the thief games.I just always liked the Trickster best :cheeky:
