Beleg Cúthalion on 26/10/2007 at 18:40
Quote Posted by demagogue
Sort of a cool, modern spin. One exception is the climax of T1 and T2, like Rick in
Casablanca, he finally does the right thing just when the moment comes, it draws the hidden sliver of nobility out of him for a fleeting moment.
Except that Garrett is no drinker. :D Or what does Bogart say in the English version? One of the most amusing lines in the whole movie. I watched it some time ago and thought of nearly the same thing. Plus, I think that a lot of Garrett's actions are just result of some kind of military keeper drill (although I don't like the idea of a super-trained hero like you see them in all the agent movies either) and his actions, left aside the pragmatism, are mostly automated. Like a soldier who would instinctively shoot in action just because he was taught to – and maybe get the nightmares afterwards. I am referring to both "small scale" (e.g. waiting in a corner to steal or bj someone) and "grand scale" (e.g. stealing in general to survive).
And last but not least, I also let everyone live who is not already dead.
jay pettitt on 26/10/2007 at 20:00
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
And last but not least, I also let everyone live who is not already dead.
Because of a moral judgment or kindness, or because mass murder would be at odds with Garrett's need to remain beneath the radar?
noisycricket on 26/10/2007 at 20:41
I realize your probably a product of religious doctrine, so ill just put this out there as a rhetorical question.
Whats wrong with prostitutes and sex?
I'd guess that societies perpetual shaming of prostitution, sex and the people involved is incredibly harmful.
Cutty's sister was a prostitute right? i forget :D
Jashin on 26/10/2007 at 21:53
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I didn't say he isn't a hero. I've seen 7 Samurai plenty thanks, and I don't see what that, or Daredevil (which I haven't seen) have to do with Garrett. Garrett is thief by trade, a criminal and possibly a murderer before we even meet him to control what he does (I played on Expert in T1 and 2 and never killed a human, but that doesn't mean the character didn't in his past).
Yeah, that's right. Garrett is no traditional hero. Yet you compare him to Neo as though he is.
Garrett, for the Nth time, is an idealogical blank much like JCDenton after him. You can kill everyone, blackjack everyone, or simply slip by everyone. He's as vicious as you want him to be. As for his thiefing ways, well, that part of him is a realist. And I point to the traditional example of heroism to illustrate a point - that is for all its complexities, Thief the game is still a game. Garrett is by no means a vigilante (although you seem to want him to be with the Robin Hood comparison and the ideological banter of why thieves are scums!!!), and we're used to popping a health potion to instantly cure what ills ya, but somehow somewhere he ends up on that path to fulfilling a "hero's duty" every single time. Sucks doesn't it? Having lived the life of a street urchin in a world of insanity, if not his special talent he'd more than likely have died young like so many others.
Dude, survive first. Then worry about how it looks. From day one it's been a fight between Garrett and the city for survival. There's no giving to the poor in this city, cus the poor would just as likely sell you out for a few pieces of copper.
A central theme in the 7 Samurai is that being a hero absolutely sucks balls. So why anyone with a past like Garrett's would want to be the society's equalizer? :erg:
Capela on 26/10/2007 at 22:20
Garrett has a conscience, how bad that can be?!!
Beleg Cúthalion on 26/10/2007 at 23:13
I think it's no fault to assume that he's normal in some ways.
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
Because of a moral judgment or kindness, or because mass murder would be at odds with Garrett's need to remain beneath the radar?
Both, I guess. I think he'll know for sure that killing makes him not only loose his balance (which he still tries to keep I think) and furthermore it's somehow nasty...cleaning up and all this...
Gambit on 27/10/2007 at 01:05
Garrett start as a selfish person but he slowly gets attached to the City.
[SPOILER]He is a selfish prick at Thief 1. Then at Thief 2 he makes an alliance with Viktoria and he feels for her death and sacrifice. At the end of Thief 3 he is trying hard to stop the age of darkness. He is doing keeper errands, actively helping them.
And at the end he becomes a keeper.[/SPOILER]
Aristed on 27/10/2007 at 01:27
The point of Garrett is in my mind that he is a pure and straight up hero disguised by shades of grey. He kills and steals in a world full of murder and hate. Today I steal copyrighted material, break speed limits and occasionally look criminally good :p so who am I to judge? In this world those things don’t make me evil and in the city the boundaries of society are different. No one ever defeats evil without becoming at least a bit of a monster themselves.
The world stamped on Garrett from the beginning and he saves the city on three separate occasions. He will kill someone who stands in his way, he will kill for money. But he will risk death to save thousands, so can he be evil? The people who save thousands of lives for real do so by killing others, Garrett doesn’t try to justify the lives he takes by pointing at the gains and loses. But do you trust the people who do? And do they have more or less right to kill? After all the man you kill in the streets of t3 may have just the same family and level of innocence that the civil protection in city 17 or the aliens in halo have. If evil is the balance between good deeds (those that help or even save others etc) and bad (selfish?) then overall Garrett is miles from evil, if evil is not that simple then what is it and who gets to decide?
I don’t hate him I connect with him (or want to), we are all evil but none of uwill gain anything from hating one another, nore do we have the right to say what is right and wrong.
There are no heroes and monsters only people and perception.
This concludes another episode of my crazy anarchist ramblings, please continue.
Goldmoon Dawn on 27/10/2007 at 03:54
Interesting...
I've never seen Garrett as a "bad guy" as I've never seen myself playing him that way...
I've always been attracted to Thief I's elite nature of gameplay. If one looks just below the surface he would find that the game encourages a style of play that does not involve violence. Indeed, a true thief is one who is never seen nor heard.
The Dark Project is the only game in the series that not only establishes this standard, but follows through until the end. You can solve Thief I without ever touching anyone.
The Garrett character has plenty of potential to be as seedy as wanted. Most of our interaction with the "planned" Garrett is in cutscenes and briefings. In Dark Project, the only instance of violence on Garrett's part is the intro movie when he sinks an arrow into the Hammer's neck. 90% of Garrett's personality comes from the player in the Missions. The real question would be how does each individual play the character. I've always played as an elitist master thief. The guy in the last post may very well kill everyone in sight.
Gambit on 27/10/2007 at 05:03
Technically if you play the all the games well (T1 - T2 - T3) you are only required to kill one person. Trickster is a god, so I just think he returned to his realm of existance instead of "dying". The other was a genocidal maniac, easily credited as self-defense (he was going to kill EVERYONE). As for the last boss, she didn´t die... Garrett just took her immortality away. That´s not exactly killing.
