Dussander on 28/10/2007 at 19:10
I can't really see a connection between Neo and Garrett.
But I think Garrett is a bad person. Sure - he had a bad childhood, he was an orphan doing petty theft to stay alive. But he was given a lifeline by the Keepers, and instead of that life he betrayed the Keepers to gain the skills to become a master thief. That makes him a bad person, even if he ends up saving a sackful of kittens drowning in the river (example only).
Springheel on 28/10/2007 at 20:26
This is a world where "justice" involves burning people alive or forcing red hot coals into their mouths; where wholesome family entertainment was watching someone hang or a chained bear being ripped apart by dogs. Garrett is a product of his environment. I would personally judge him much more harshly for being a trusting idiot than for being morally dark.
jay pettitt on 28/10/2007 at 20:52
Quote Posted by Papy
Is a soldier evil for killing enemies or people helping those enemies?
Depends which side they're on...
muteki13 on 29/10/2007 at 02:31
I think it's a matter of interpretation. You could easily say that Garrett has too much integrity to abide by an openly corrupt society and so chooses to live outside of it. However, knocking out servants and stealing their meager possessions is hardly sticking it to the man.
The whole saving-the-world thing isn't cut and dry either. Each of the three bad guys did something to hurt Garrett before he moves to take them down. Is it heroism, or is it revenge?
It's almost as if the developers deliberately set up these paradoxes so we would have to make up our own minds. The game is based on the film noir genre, which also utilized these anti-heroes. Of course, the anxiety in film noir is supposed to be based on a societal concern about women entering the workforce in droves during the war and wanting to stay there afterwards. So unless Garrett steals because he fears women... :weird:
RavynousHunter on 29/10/2007 at 16:07
I've always seen Garrett and CJ (from San Andreas) in a similar light. CJ isn't really, at the deepest level, a bad guy, hes an anti-hero whose forced to commit crimes as he has no other means at his disposal, like Garrett. In the beginning, Garrett was a criminal simply as a matter of survival, but later used the skills he had learned to save people, however reluctant he might be to do so.
However, in contrast, CJ was a criminal as a matter of upbringing, he was raised as a gangster in the poor side of town, so it was the only life he knew. However, towards the middle and end of San Andreas, he tried to loosen his ties to criminality, but got pulled back in, like how Garrett planned to retire after he did the Constantine job, but due to extenuating circumstances, he was pulled right back into the life he had tried to leave.
Like its been said before, Garrett isn't really a "bad guy", per se, hes just doing what he has to to survive, in the only way he knows how, but gets roped into a chain of events that make him the Keeper Messiah, much to his dismay.
Of course, we see that Garrett likes what he does in the LotP briefing in the following quote:
Viktoria: And Garrett...-
Garrett: Remember to pickpocket the party guests? :sly:
SubJeff on 29/10/2007 at 16:16
This is just it though - no-one is "forced" to commit crimes. These actions require a choice, and CJ and Garrett choose to be criminals.
Just for follow-up: I'm not comparing Neo and Garrett as characters (though if you think about it there are many similarities), just the actions they take that are excused because they are the hero of the story.
RavynousHunter on 29/10/2007 at 16:21
True, but they had few choices to begin with, and crime was the most easily available option.
SubJeff on 29/10/2007 at 16:33
As is me stealing the pie I'm leaving to buy now. The people in the shop will never notice, but that doesn't matter - I'm made the choice to pay for it.
This is exactly what I'm talking about - we make excuses for Garrett when in RL you'd not trust or like this guy at all. This is also why I think that Thief is actually an action RPG (and I've said this many times before).
"Traditional" RPGs are stats governed. In Thief you actually role-play, as in you play the role of a thief. People forget that RPGs began as pen and paper affairs where the personality of your character (whether it be close to your RL personality or not) affected the way you played because you were playing a role.
The role-play element of Thief means you take on and accept who and what you do as a vocation (and tweak on a personal level). It's a very narrow focus RPG that asks you to take on the role of a thief. I embrace this facility that gaming gives us, but I also accept that I'm playing a bad guy.
Goldmoon Dawn on 29/10/2007 at 20:05
I agree completely with this. Growing up with Lord British as my father gave me an early insight into what a true crpg should be. As you know, Looking Glass was mentored by Lord British and walked away with a lot of obviously classic ideas. The Dark Project is right up there with the classic Ultimas. :ebil:
Dussander on 29/10/2007 at 23:12
Quote Posted by RavynousHunter
True, but they had few choices to begin with, and crime was the most easily available option.
He was offered a life as a Keeper, yet he chose to manipulate them for their skills.
