Herr_Garrett on 3/2/2009 at 12:48
I guess most of you'd answer with a resounding 'yes', but personally I'm not so sure. One of the 'marks' of being a -tagonist is that throughout the story, you change (in fact, according to deconstructivism, the story can only be about some sort of change). In Thief, though, it is not so. Garrett's personality does not change at all from the Keeper's Training to City Day Nine. The only change we (might) see is his acceptance of being a Keeper, but even that is only implied at, not explicity stated. Yes, his gear does, but I think we could easily say that the post-Keeper's Training Garrett could have just as easily achieved the activation of the Final Glyph than the pre-, say, -Moira one. He doesn't get better at thieving, he doesn't become more grumpy, or sarcastic, or aimable, or sociable or anything. In all three games, he remains the same.
So, is Garrett, in fact, the main hero of the story? Not the games (for he certainly is, of the games). I myself would rather say that it is the City, if there must be one.
Digital Nightfall on 3/2/2009 at 13:00
I tend to think that that rule only applies to novels, and even then only to some circle of literary scholars.
Sneaksie on 3/2/2009 at 13:06
An interesting thought... the story of the games combined can be simplified to danger of extremes to humanity (the City) i think (from extreme... let's say 'Greenpeace' to extreme technology, while TDS is a story about extreme corruption in society of real rulers of the world).
Melan on 3/2/2009 at 15:01
I believe Garrett had changed personally between the various games. Early on, he is shown as much more self-serving than, say, in latter missions of The Metal Age, and he possesses some character flaws which are probably less prominent later on.
Also, I happen to think "deconstructivism" is a questionable approach to understand anything, including popular fiction. Very often, its search for hidden meanings is either used to prove the deconstructor's pet peeves, or introduces them inadverently. Ultimately, it almost always turns the subject material into a huge Rorschach test where everyone can find his or her favourite demons. It tells more about the analyst than the subject.
Renault on 3/2/2009 at 15:15
I think Garrett changes quite a bit, specifically regarding his attitudes towards the Keepers. In The Dark Project and most of The Metal Age, he completely shuns them, and will only work with them if it is to his advantage. In Deadly Shadows, he is very open and willing to work with them without asking for anything in return.
That aside, you could probably find hundreds or thousands of examples in literature, movies, games, etc., where the Protagonist didn't really evolve that much throughout the story. I think it's a poor measuring stick, Garrett is quite obviously the hero and center of all activity in the Thief games - no sane person could dispute that.
Solabusca on 3/2/2009 at 15:41
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
I guess most of you'd answer with a resounding 'yes', but personally I'm not so sure. One of the 'marks' of being a -tagonist is that throughout the story, you change (in fact, according to deconstructivism, the story can
only be about some sort of change). In Thief, though, it is not so. Garrett's personality does not change at all from the Keeper's Training to City Day Nine. The only change we (might) see is his acceptance of being a Keeper, but even that is only implied at, not explicity stated. Yes, his gear does, but I think we could easily say that the post-Keeper's Training Garrett could have just as easily achieved the activation of the Final Glyph than the pre-, say, -Moira one. He doesn't get better at thieving, he doesn't become more grumpy, or sarcastic, or aimable, or sociable or anything. In all three games, he remains the same.
So, is Garrett, in fact, the main hero of the
story? Not the games (for he certainly is, of the games). I myself would rather say that it is the City, if there must be one.
... Did you observe the same story?
His personality does evolve over the course of the story; that much is clear. As to his 'implied acceptance' of his role as Keeper - did you WATCH the final cutscene of TDS? Where he flat out states it? Because that does more than simply suggest that he has shown personal development and growth.
.j.
all on 3/2/2009 at 17:52
I think Garrett does change throughout the series, even though, of course, he stays Garrett throughout. There are physical changes too, and I think we can interpret these as accompanying Garrett's personality changes. For example, in T1, Garrett is a pretty self-centred guy until he gets his eye plucked out by Victoria (would this loss of an eye not represent Garrett's awareness of his own mortality, or something like that?). After the Keepers free him, he starts asking himself questions (ex: who are the keepers? what is happening? what have I done? I might be stretching things a bit, bit I believe the briefings and cutscences account that Garrett's thoughts do go in this direction). He even temporarily allies with his enemies, the Hammers, to solve this problem. Being conscious of death appears to make Garrett ready to accept compromise...
In T2, the physical changes aren't so clear. However, the new theme here is rather obvious to me: complicity, maybe love (or something like that) for Victoria. Proof is the way he gets attached to her by the end of the game and screams out for her before she dies. That's the only way I managed to interpret his preoccupation for her, anyway. I never would have guessed he would act so spontaneously in regards to the woman who plucked his eye out in the first place. Isn't this ironic?
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114223) I started a thread about Garrett and his (personnality) evolution some time ago.
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124259) Plus, a "shameless plug" to my video thread so you can check out the briefings and cutscenes and judge for yourself.
I can't pronounce myself about T3, since I haven't even finished the game yet, but I try to see in each game of the Thief series an evolution (as difficult as is to achieve in a video game). But a sure example of a physical change foreshadowing a personality change is the little key Garrett gets on his hand in the final cutscene.
But taking the City as the main character of the Thief Series is very interesting. Especially since physical location is so important in video games. I'm curious as to where this discussion will lead...
Herr_Garrett on 4/2/2009 at 07:36
On the contrary: in DP he allies with those "crazy Hammers" because "it wouldn't hurt to have a dozen heavily armed fanatics on my side" and because he thinks they can help somehow to get his eye back. I think in DP he only acts because
a) he realises that if the Trickster would destroy the world, whom would he loot?
b) yes, he does want to save the world, a bit, out of a mixture of sentimentalism, pride, greed.
c) will he or nill he, that is his fate, even though he doesn't know that.
Does he become pals with the Keepers? Remember the DP outro...?
In MA, again, I think he allies with Viktoria only because he can see it would be to his advantage. (
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/T2_CS10) Confer with this. Yes, sure, maybe he fell in love with Viktoria. I don't think so, but, yes, there is a possibility. Is that really a change? There was potential for love in Garrett from the very beginning, methinks.
And... do you leave your beloved ones to die? 'Your plan is suicide. I'll think of a better way. And I work alone.' And, lo and behold, Viktoria did die.
As for his working with the Keepers and not asking anything in return in DS... So why did he want those "useful" books, etc.? And did that occur to you that maybe he accepted his "Keepership" precisely because the Keepers per se ceased to exist?
Beleg Cúthalion on 4/2/2009 at 08:27
If you remember the quotes form the early Dark Project homepage you can clearly see a (idealistic/passionated...?) rebellious element in Garrett's character towards the Keepers which he can maybe hold up throughout TDP but looses during TMA and TDS. Even if getting more relaxed and less stubborn was his only evolution, it still is one I guess.
Talk about Robbing the Cradle, there Garrett is surely not the main character. .p
jtr7 on 4/2/2009 at 08:55
Has anyone ever heard how concerned Garrett sounds when he says:
garm1301: What happened here? And where are all the Hammerites?!
