Is Garrett the main hero?

all on 4/2/2009 at 09:24

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

Talk about Robbing the Cradle, there Garrett is surely not the main character. .p

True. But she only pops up at the end. Nevertheless perhaps the girl could be considered a -agonist of T3; perhaps even more than Garrett.

Good point Herr_Garrett. Garrett does not act solely because he wants to save the world (fortunately :) )

When I said Garrett started to accept compromise, I didn't mean to say he was negotiating with everyone. At the end of T1 he still isn't very interested by keepers. But I think the fact that he does attend one of the translator's speeches in T2 (even though he leaves before its end) does indicate change to a certain extent.

Beleg Cúthalion on 4/2/2009 at 16:12

Quote Posted by jtr7

Has anyone ever heard how concerned Garrett sounds when he says:
garm1301: What happened here? And where are all the Hammerites?!

He's concerned about the balance. :p Honestly, I have found (invented?) a kind of theory according to which Garrett looses the direct influence of the Keepers (i.e. his "direct" memories about his education etc.) while the indirect influence (recognizing that these guys were right) slowly grows. There seems to be a junction point in TMA when he has a rather viewless-dismissive attitude towards the Keepers but from then on he gains the insight that they do have a point. Likewise his intentional rejection regarding the Keepers is very slowly decreasing from the moment he leaves the compound in TDP.

Would be another evolution. ;)

Herr_Garrett on 4/2/2009 at 18:57

Well, I concede to some of your points :p:cheeky: Still, my question was misunderstood (but probably ill-formed, too :rolleyes:): the question is not whether Garrett is or is not a hero; he doubtless is one. But is he the main hero? Does the events revolve around Garrett? Is he, for want of a better word, crucial for the story, for the events that befall/fell in the City?

I do agree that Garrett has a very developed and well-described personality, but for the proper functioning of the story it is not a "must have". True, it does add favour, and, after all, the game is about stealing, and who if not a master thief can, well, thieve? But had it been a mage, or a warrior who defeated the Trickster, and doomed Karras, etc. would the story have changed? As for the business with the Eye: if think I've read an actually quite creative fan-novel sort-of-thing about it not being Garrett who stole the Eye; yet the story ended the same way.
Why do I consider the City to be the main, if passive hero of the stories? Because apart from Garrett, it is the only "character" present in all the three games (we can't be sure about Artemus). It has a life on its own, apparently: the sum is greater than the parts. Every city (even in our world), in fact, has a life of its own, which is loosely, but not necessarily, connected to the life of its inhabitants. And the City continues: it arose from the ruins of Karath-Din triumphantly, it survived the unnamed Calamity, the Trickster's rampage, Karras's insanity, and Gamall's plotting. A curious patter emerges, to my mind: are Garrett, the Keepers, all the factions, even the Cradle the mere puppets of the unwitting City? (Yes, this can also be interpreted as a question about our human history). Briefly: could the stories have taken place without the City, but not without Garrett, or vice versa?

PS. As for deconstructivism: I do not agree with 99% of it, either. But specifically the theory about this change-story stuff, I find that true.

all on 4/2/2009 at 19:05

What about setting?

jtr7 on 4/2/2009 at 20:11

TDP: Without Garrett, Viktoria would've had to find another, or several thieves who could make an attempt to get The Eye, figure out how to get into the Keeper Chapel (with their prophecies, would they have built the place differently to hide their existence from the non-Keepers?), survive the Lost City, infiltrate the Hammer Temple, etc. So as far as we know, most of the events of TDP would never have happened, or would've gone down very very differently. The Keepers would still have their prophecies, and the prophecies would have to describe the future imbalance, and how events were to unfold to restore the balance, all without Garrett's major involvement. Assuming the Elemental Talismans were powerful enough to completely keep Con & Viki away, they might have had to get more involved in their retrieval, and help the manfools get in and out. Assuming everyone was ultimately successful, when the Trickster then laid siege to the Hammer Temple, would anybody go in there, find the Hammers down below before it was too late, and would they be competent enough to enter the Maw and stop the ritual? Who's eye would fuel The Eye, and become the One True Keeper, or would The Eye somehow drop the flesheye and resume waiting for The One, keeping the pact with the Keepers? Would a Keeper go rogue and sacrifice him/herself to do it, acting directly to stop it?

Thief Gold: The above, except the thieves would've also had to go up against the Hand Mages, though I don't see them struggling too hard with the Opera House, other than getting lost. Who knows if they would know of Giry or the spider tunnel sewer entrance. What would the words of the statues in the Mage Towers be for the surrogate thieves?

TMA: Would've been extremely different, unless the Trickster was stopped through similar methods. The Mechanists arose out of disgust with the conservative Hammer ways that allowed the Trickster to break right in to the Hammer Temple, capture the Hammers, cart off the High Priest, to be saved by thieves--so embarrassing. Never again! We have the minds and the means to ensure this will never ever happen again! By the Builder! Wipe the pagans out! All of them! Leave no root hidden, no seed for them to spring back from! Totally eradicate the source of their wicked magics, the plants, the animals...! Without Garrett, what would the prophecies say about the Metal Age, about how the balance would be restored, and Viktoria, etc?

TDS: Without Garrett, the splinter group of Keepers would work differently and have significantly different motives under the umbrella of Balance. Without their history with Garrett, without the one prophecied thief mentioned innumerable times, it would all have to be different. And as much as I like Artemus, I think he had his hands full enough with Garrett doing so much dirty work. Again, a rogue Keeper who could fulfill the requirements, and who could give his/her eye to The Eye to become The One True Keeper, and activate the Final Glyph. We can only speculate whether or not Gamall needed The Eye to have taken a flesheye, or if she could achieve her ultimate goals with a blind Eye. Also, maybe she would've kept hidden, if the Eye was never fueled, and just went on to replace Caduca when she died. Without Garrett, and all the prophecies about The One and the Thief, and the Brethren and Betrayer, Orland may have not been so unbalanced. The Glyphs may not have become masters over the Keepers. Without someone fulfilling Garrett's role, so much may have never happened at all. There would be no need for anyone to enter the Cradle. Drept would've died hunting the Hag and probably never catching her.

Assuming events were as predestined as they were, minus Garrett, who would the factions find willing to do their dirty-work as events unfolded?
Without this City, there would be no story. Without Garrett, someone, or a group of someones, or several different people in different places in the timeline would have to be involved, and the prophecies would have to be completely rewritten, and the Keepers would have to work differently.

Meisterdieb on 4/2/2009 at 21:48

First off, I wouldn't call Garrett a "hero". I just would call him the protagonist since that does imho describe him in a more neutral way.

And he definitely IS the protagonist of all 3 Thief games. Simply because you play him - since it is a computer game that makes him (you, the player) the protagonist (especially since it is a first person game).

Quote:

One of the 'marks' of being a -tagonist is that throughout the story, you change

Quote:

according to deconstructivism, the story can only be about some sort of change

I think there is some change in Garrett - enough to satisfy the definition given above. It doesn't quantify that change, nowhere does it say it only counts if the protagonist changes at least for 51%. It may not be the most sophisticated storyline or character development (depends on what you like and granted that such change is more difficult to implement in a computer game where you don't have that much inner monologue) but it is there. You also have definite changes in the setting (the city) and with the other participants.

TDP:
Most of it only serves to establish Garrett's character - since you need a basis for changes to manifest and so the reader/gamer can recognize such a change. But we see one big change of Garrett when he looses his eye. It's one physical change, of course, but more importantly it makes him realize that his lifestyle up to this point is mostly responsible for his dire situation. Since he has until now always kept to himself, he doesn't have any friends or people to help him (the Keepers do help but do so only for the reason that they need him). That's the reason he decides to pay a visit to the Hammerites, although by now it is too late.

TMA:
I'd like to point to the first mission, Running Interference. I believe it shows us right there a change in Garrett's personality. While in all the missions before (TDP) he only was in it for profit or revenge, this marks the first time a social component enters the stage - Basso's sister.
One big impact would then be the scene in the village with the massacred pagans. IMO all the musical cues and ghost-drama (and maybe some of Garrett's remarks) only serve to show that Garrett begins to care for other people. And finallly, Garrett's big "NO!" at Viktoria's sacrifice in Soul Forge.

TDS:
One shouldn't put too much emphasisi on gameplay, but one could argue that the option to ally with Pagans and/or Hammers does show consioderable change from Garrett's earlier "lone wolf" times.
But TDS also shows much more interaction between Garrett and his allies - the Keepers. It is somewhat ironic that as soon as Garrett begins to leave his hermitage, he is disappointed - the Keepers accuse him of murder and betrayal...
I believe the biggest changes come at the end - in the cutscenes. They show that Garrett returned the items to Pagans and Hammers. For the first time, Garrett doesn't take away but bring; also a sign that he accepts being a Keeper of the Balance.
As well as the much debated scene with the little girl and his keyhole tattoo.
Garrett's reaction? He doesn't whip out the blackjack and k.o. the girl or whine on about a stupid tattoo ("Stupid meddling Keepers, again"). He smirks, it could even be called a smile.

Oh yea, if anyone should be called a hero, I would nominate Artemus since he is the one that keeps Garrett from alienating himself too much and he honestly (again IMO) tries to help him - even though that means risking his own life.

Final note (some poster said it before me):
These definitions (as given in the first post) only represent some opinions and also don't apply to every medium in the same way.
There are some novels where the protagonists don't change (much), and while most of such novels will be of inferior literary quality, it doesn't make them bad (as in " I still like the story") per se, nor is it a primary criterion for good literature. For example, in almost all dime novels and romances like those of Rosamunde Pilcher et al. you have tons and tons of changes in the characters - but that doesn't make them "good" or "perfect".
In other stories you have (almost) no change in the main characters but still it is a great story.
In other media you will have different weighting as well. With television you are limited as to how much change you can show only by visuals; mostly you try to stay away from (too long) voice-overs - they are tricky and tend to be boring if not performed very well. (Just to illustrate my point - try to imagine Joyce's Ulisses as a film, or watch the movie and see how it failed)

With a computer game, the author is once again limited in how much he can change the character during gameplay. It's simply because with a first person game as Thief, any change that comes from outside the player's influence is considered bad form. You start out with a defined character but any change after the game begins has to directly result from actions by the player. It's like playing Thief as a psycho on a killing spree and then having Garrett be adressed in a cut-scene as a kind Robin Hood guy.

That is the reason why there is so few readily discernible, plain open changes within Garrett in the Thief series. Since the designers don't want to exclude certain playing styles or plaer types, and also don't know how exactly players will handle or react to certain situations, those will be handled delicately and subtle. As "proof" have a look at the discussions on whether the cut-scenes of Thief 2 are evidence for or against a romantic relationship between Garrett and Viktoria... :cheeky:

Herr_Garrett on 12/2/2009 at 07:27

Quote Posted by Meisterdieb

TDP:
Most of it only serves to establish Garrett's character - since you need a basis for changes to manifest and so the reader/gamer can recognize such a change. But we see one big change of Garrett when he looses his eye. It's one physical change, of course, but more importantly it makes him realize that his lifestyle up to this point is mostly responsible for his dire situation. Since he has until now always kept to himself, he doesn't have any friends or people to help him (the Keepers do help but do so only for the reason that they need him). That's the reason he decides to pay a visit to the Hammerites, although by now it is too late.

TMA:
I'd like to point to the first mission, Running Interference. I believe it shows us right there a change in Garrett's personality. While in all the missions before (TDP) he only was in it for profit or revenge, this marks the first time a social component enters the stage - Basso's sister.
One big impact would then be the scene in the village with the massacred pagans. IMO all the musical cues and ghost-drama (and maybe some of Garrett's remarks) only serve to show that Garrett begins to care for other people. And finallly, Garrett's big "NO!" at Viktoria's sacrifice in Soul Forge.

TDS:
One shouldn't put too much emphasisi on gameplay, but one could argue that the option to ally with Pagans and/or Hammers does show consioderable change from Garrett's earlier "lone wolf" times.
But TDS also shows much more interaction between Garrett and his allies - the Keepers. It is somewhat ironic that as soon as Garrett begins to leave his hermitage, he is disappointed - the Keepers accuse him of murder and betrayal...
I believe the biggest changes come at the end - in the cutscenes. They show that Garrett returned the items to Pagans and Hammers. For the first time, Garrett doesn't take away but bring; also a sign that he accepts being a Keeper of the Balance.
As well as the much debated scene with the little girl and his keyhole tattoo.
Garrett's reaction? He doesn't whip out the blackjack and k.o. the girl or whine on about a stupid tattoo ("Stupid meddling Keepers, again"). He smirks, it could even be called a smile.

Oh yea, if anyone should be called a hero, I would nominate Artemus since he is the one that keeps Garrett from alienating himself too much and he honestly (again IMO) tries to help him - even though that means risking his own life.

I do not know if we've played the same games at all.

And, once again: YES, GARRETT IS THE MAIN HERO OF THE GAMES! THE GAMES! GOT IT? I was asking the question whether he is the main hero of the stories. And, apart from jtr7's post, there still isn't any reasonable argument. This stuff is not about personal feelings, but about objective analysis. Like the Keepers, you know...?

Solabusca on 12/2/2009 at 16:35

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

"Aside from this remarkably well thought out refutation of my idea posted by THIS fellow, no one else has stepped up!"

Sorry, there have been more than a few people who've stated to varying degrees that you're incorrect, and have pointed out why; I've been one of them.

I get that you're working towards a degree in Lit. I get that you're trying to be edgy and intellectual and analytical. But you're wrong. You can twist things as much as you wish, and can probably make it look like what you want if you squint at it hard enough, but that's just sophistry. Garrett is, categorically, the main character of the storyline of the Thief games [PLEASE NOTE: THE STORYLINE - NOT THE GAMES]. He shows character development as the games progress (and in-game, as well) - and you seem determined to blithely continue past it without taking notice of the fact.

.j.

Herr_Garrett on 13/2/2009 at 12:29

Quote Posted by Solabusca

I'm nicked. I'm in secret alligance with jtr7.
I really do not know if Masterdieb has played the same Thief games as we, or at least I did. Jenivere being Basso's sister? Garrett ever being pals with the Hammers? He returning the Chalice and the Paw? Garrett having a keyhole? I mean, what?

OK, you believe he is the main hero. I don't. Also, character development and change is not the same. But yes, let him be.
The question whether Garrett did become a Keeper (seeing that Keepers did not exist anymore), or falling in love with eye-picking (catching, hah) Viktoria is much debated, as I am sure you're aware of it.
I'm now going to be evil again: I have to say that I missed Beleg's post. And I now declare: he's got a point too, that is contrary to mine! How twisted I am.

Whatever. If you wish, Garrett is the main hero.

Petike the Taffer on 13/2/2009 at 14:52

Inline Image:

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2111/poster81974404va7.jpg

;)

But I think that the City and it's colourful inhabitants (and even foes) have the status of crucial characters as well. It's not just about one memorable protagonist and a bunch of few major characters that "orbit" around him... and that's a thing I personally appreciate very much...