Domarius on 4/4/2006 at 14:25
Quote Posted by jtbalogh
You are only saying no skill because it is easy to use when garrett stops.
Uhh... well yeah!
The simple fact is you can use it to "peek" around corners quite a fair way, without exposing yourself.
That, is cheating. The AI can't do the same back to you. Sure you can blackjack them, but they can smack you down with their sword. Sure you can flash bomb them, but they can call for help and rally on you with sheer numbers.
How do you compensate the AI for the player being able to peer around the corner with invisible eyes like that? As soon as you do, you're trying to solve one bad design desicion with another.
This is not the same as the scouting orb, which actually has drawbacks and requires you to think before you use it, and get it back.
ascottk on 4/4/2006 at 17:58
Quote Posted by Domarius
Uhh... well yeah!
The simple fact is you can use it to "peek" around corners quite a fair way, without exposing yourself.
That, is cheating. The AI can't do the same back to you. Sure you can blackjack them, but they can smack you down with their sword. Sure you can flash bomb them, but they can call for help and rally on you with sheer numbers.
How do you compensate the AI for the player being able to peer around the corner with invisible eyes like that? As soon as you do, you're trying to solve one bad design desicion with another.
This is not the same as the scouting orb, which actually has drawbacks and requires you to think before you use it, and get it back.
That means my new leaning animations would allow for cheating :eww: They're pretty worthless in 3rd person, but the new animations are more true to t1/2.
jtbalogh on 5/4/2006 at 00:41
Domarius, with your logic, I would have to throw away first person in T1g/2/2x and now in TDS with ascotts anims, because leaning keeps AI from smacking you down with their sword, calling for help or rallying on you with sheer numbers. I will not throw first person away, so I do not throw third person away either.
Domarius, with your logic, standing in shadows takes no skill so having no skill is worthless? On the other hand, how could there be NO skill in ghosting an entire level with third person? It takes lots of skill which you avoid acknowledging. Complain all you want about people who switch to third person just to look around corners, but not to me -- as I use it differently to honor thief traditions. :)
jtbalogh on 5/4/2006 at 00:53
Ascottk, the anims would not need to be worthless in third person because like with first person, I do not fall off crazy ledges. :thumb: So the arms look strange and robotic, oh well. You can better spend your time doing other things compared to bending/positioning the arms anyway.
The anims look great in the editor but I can not see them ingame yet. Nice trick in just turning the body and bending the legs. It is also interesting to see the left and right leans are unique. The legs are positioned differently which cause the body to turn in different ways. Great job.
Domarius on 6/4/2006 at 10:00
Quote Posted by jtbalogh
Domarius, with your logic, I would have to throw away first person in T1g/2/2x and now in TDS with ascotts anims, because leaning keeps AI from smacking you down with their sword, calling for help or rallying on you with sheer numbers. I will not throw first person away, so I do not throw third person away either.
Domarius, with your logic, standing in shadows takes no skill so having no skill is worthless? On the other hand, how could there be NO skill in ghosting an entire level with third person? It takes lots of skill which you avoid acknowledging. Complain all you want about people who switch to third person just to look around corners, but not to me -- as I use it differently to honor thief traditions. :)
Ah, no you're wrong.
Leaning outward in T2 allowed the AI to have a chance at seeing you. It was slightly flawed in that it still sampled the light value from your feet sometimes allowing you to lean into light area while still being in the dark, but if you were already lit in the first place when you leant out, you had no chance.
Obviously you haven't played T2 very much or you would have learnt this already.
By your logic, there doesn't need to be any thought or challenge in doing anything, you should just be able to do something for free to the already stupid AI to make the game easier and more boring.
jtbalogh on 6/4/2006 at 13:34
Stop calling people stupid. We are supposed to be sneaking in the shadows, not well lit rooms. I do not hang out in brightly lit rooms like you imply we all must do in order to be a good player. I stuck to shadows in T2, T2X and 61 FMs and still am a good player.
Ghosting a mission in just third person takes a lot of skill since uniquely hard and awkward, but not easy and boring. I already said I do not switch to third person to look around corners. Do not be rude. Forward your colorful comments on someone who cheats. ;)
jtbalogh on 6/4/2006 at 14:29
BTW, Domarius, nice to have this conversation with you since we last talked on 9th Mar 2005, 08:49 PM, in Third person in DS..., at,
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94545)
Quote:
... already stupid AI ...
... solve one bad design desicion with another ...
As an FM maker, you could agree that the game is not easy by avoiding to stick enemy and patrols obviously in the middle of a room or field. This benefits first person and third person. EDIT> This is not a bad design decision ...
Domarius on 8/4/2006 at 03:40
I'm obvoiusly talking with a 12 year old.
* I never called anyone stupid (just the AI, poor AI, and it was in regards to the player being smarter than them)
* I am telling you why 3rd person is bad to look around corners with - I don't care how you use it, and never will - I'm talking about the principal of it and when you realise this you might stop taking my comments as some personal attack on your playstyle.
* The example of leaning out into light - plainly enough - was an example of how leaning CAN put you at a disadvantage in the original games, it wasn't always for free, like 3rd person view is.
You have no idea what I'm saying, and you're taking everything I say as a personal insult. So, on the topic of my post that you oh so cleverly found in a searhc, I AM going to make direct insults to you, it's your job to learn from this and spot the difference between critisism of a principal and a personal attack.
My post was about how 3rd person can LOOK cool, not what functional purpose it has in the game. Even before the game came out, I made many posts about how bad 3rd person would be and they are no different to this one. And if you bothered to read my entire post there, you'll see how I clearly qualified my use of it by restricting it only to situations where there was no one else around, and that one time I blackjacked a simple servant that I had no chance of losing. Obviously since you have the comprehension ability of a 12 year old, you missed this.
Enter The Matrix makes good use of 3rd person view and cool camera angles for the fight scenes. Thing is, Enter the Matrix is not a stealth game and also a bit more action/arcade than Thief, so it doesn't matter if you get a few concessions by cheating to look around the corner because the game is already a bit simple and arbitrarily difficult compared to Thief. In Thief it's hard to imagine what cool action sequences would benifit from a well placed 3rd person camera - and indeed the camera spends most of its time behind you, which is pointless IMO, you may as well be in First person and stop your OWN body from blocking your OWN view.
I've finished talking to you, you're too immature.
jtbalogh on 8/4/2006 at 08:31
Nothing personal. I will take the first step and apologize for confusing you somehow and getting you fired up. We already agreed that looking around corners is cheating. We already agreed that people who stand in light will lean at a disadvantage. I can agree the game has more to offer than being cool. Good points all around.
I also agree you do not call people stupid. It still comes across though as not knowing T2, wanting something for free, and asking worthless questions if it has anything to do with third person. Which escalates to being 12-years-old. I thought leaning into light was not plainly obvious because less significant and easily avoided when the goal is to stand in shadows or find another way around.
I am glad you restrict third person to only to situations as you indicated in your post. SImilar to what I was trying to get across, but failed to do so clearly. Thanks for the update.
In general, hope your weekend is nice. Cheers.
BTW, since I was in the link I posted, I did not need to search for it. I just remembered we had a nice chat before. I am a changed person since then to focus my ideas to appreciate a more minimalist TDS. I am sure you appreciate that. :)
