Is pushing new dark graphics to its limits worth it?

Ricebug on 12/1/2015 at 18:37

Quote Posted by bedwine

One of the reasons I am having difficulty getting in to DROMED is the small sized editor on my screen.

You've got to do some tweaking to make the Dromed window larger. Watch (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144543) Dale's Dromed videos to see how to set it all up.

I know Digital Nightfall & Datoyminaytah built Calendra's Legacy on a 640x480 editor on a 17-inch monitor. The system requirements for CL are laughable by today's hardware standards. And even then, we had folks crying that the mission wouldn't run on their Pentium II's.

I don't know of any author who deliberately sets out to crash his or her own mission by cramming it full of hi-rez stuff. New Dark merely relaxed some previously difficult restraints, giving us a bit more flexibility.

bjack on 12/1/2015 at 19:42

Thanks again everyone for your votes and thoughts on this matter. I will go out on a limb and unscientifically express my opinion of the results.

1. All those that voted yes it is worth it (just over 29%) have very new computers and probably do not use NVidia cards - at least not cards that are more than a year or two old.
2. Those that voted no (just over 26%), well... they have something less than an i7 or an i5, or are trying to play on a laptop.
3. Those that voted that it depends (about 44 1/2 %) are people with fairly decent boxes and enjoy the "richer" look of the enhanced games, sometimes even at the expense of play-ability.

Of course there are exceptions... Yes, No, and Maybe answers have more reasons than these, but these seem to be the most generic reasons to me.

I voted no because I do not think the new graphics are extraordinary, especially as compared to a console like a PS3, or PC games from even 10 years ago. Are the new textures nice? Sure, but not worth making the game unplayable. But that line of thinking may be misguided. The fine textures of King's Story in the old dark did not slow things down. Some here have toned down the graphics and still get low FPS. Some have suggested that the dynamic lights may have something to do with the issue. I think Soul Tear's super moon may be a factor. Something is keeping the FM slow even when I am inside walking down and interior hallway. That suggests to me that the whole map and every AI are actively trying the render all the time (apologies for not using the correct terms here). Whatever the cause, I bet someone will figure it out.

And that is why I really enjoyed seeing FM creators express their opinions here. This topic is by no means new, but maybe my bringing it up again will further the cause for more efficiency in the code. Maybe some lights extend too far? Maybe some AI do not need to be active all of the time? Do all fireplaces and other fires need to be lit on the other side of town? As I recall in other FMs, moving things do not become active until you get within a certain range. This greatly reduces the CPU/GPU requirements. It is a technique used in many PC games and I suspect that it was used in T1 and T2. Maybe some NewDark FMs that play fine also use this technique, while the others that are slow are fully "open" (i.e. always active and with infinite radius on lights?) Again, whatever the causes, I am sure you FM creators will figure this out.

Meanwhile, I guess I have to pry open my wallet and get a new machine :cheeky:

Renault on 12/1/2015 at 19:43

Quote Posted by Ricebug

I know Digital Nightfall & Datoyminaytah built Calendra's Legacy on a 640x480 editor on a 17-inch monitor.

Purah, actually...

cavador_8 on 12/1/2015 at 19:55

Quote:

I guess I have to pry open my wallet and get a new machine

Don't expect that to solve this issue. I have played these missions on another pc with a brand new shiny GTX980 with an i7 and got some good stuttering and low frame rates too. As you know, this engine only uses one core so a fast multicore processor will not do much good. I think that most people are just not bothered with frame rate issues. Drives me crazy though.

fortuni on 12/1/2015 at 20:00

been a cracking good thread though....thanks bjack :D

Tannar on 12/1/2015 at 20:12

Quote Posted by bjack

1. All those that voted yes it is worth it (just over 29%) have very new computers and probably do not use NVidia cards - at least not cards that are more than a year or two old.

Not entirely true. I don't have a newer machine. I have a 4 year old i5 with integrated graphics (which is kind of like saying no graphics) and I still vote for pushing the limit. We should never stop pushing the limit. I get a lot of lag at times but I know that eventually I'll get a new machine that will handle the missions being made now (or recently) and I'll play them then. No problem. It's not like I"m going to ever stop playing Thief missions.

nickie on 12/1/2015 at 20:46

I'd say not entirely true either. I already stated my specs (Intel duo 2.4 with 4Gb and Radeon HD 6800 1GB released 2010). My pc is newish to me but was put together with second-hand parts. I got a bit of lag now and then with KoI: Bad Venture but I was surprised how smoothly it played. Maybe it's not having the Nvidia card. I was expecting something like Rose Cottage on my old pc which was hard to test and made me feel quite ill sometimes it was so choppy and like walking through glue.

To me, mission authors are artists and artists have to push boundaries. It's in the code.

PS. I'm pretty sure I forgot to vote. [Edit. Yes I forgot]

baeuchlein on 12/1/2015 at 21:22

Quote Posted by cavador_8

I entered the tavern in Keeper Of Infinity and watched my frame take a hard dive into the 30s.

I think this may be caused by the number of AI inside the tavern. I have seen it even in pre-NewDark missions when entering rooms as crowded as this one.

Quote Posted by bjack

I will go out on a limb and unscientifically express my opinion of the results.

1. All those that voted yes it is worth it (just over 29%) have very new computers and probably do not use NVidia cards - at least not cards that are more than a year or two old.
2. Those that voted no (just over 26%), well... they have something less than an i7 or an i5, or are trying to play on a laptop.
3. Those that voted that it depends (about 44 1/2 %) are people with fairly decent boxes and enjoy the "richer" look of the enhanced games, sometimes even at the expense of play-ability.

Of course there are exceptions... Yes, No, and Maybe answers have more reasons than these, but these seem to be the most generic reasons to me.

I am not so sure whether your assumptions about certain pieces of hardware (NVidia cards, Intel CPUs) fit so well, but in general, you may be right. That would mean that in the future, when people obtain newer hardware, giving them better performance, acceptance of packing more graphical content could increase. On the other hand, if the number of people playing new missions decreased significantly, the authors might react on that and produce less graphics-packed missions. Or maybe some would quit making missions.

Then, of course, maybe some optimization processes for the NewDark engine, or maybe for widespread content, would occur. The crops in "The Farm" were refined, as far as I know. Could lead to better FPS for upcoming missions in the future.

We'll see.

Quote Posted by bjack

The fine textures of King's Story in the old dark did not slow things down.

Are you certain? The second mission of "King's Story" lagged for me even on my rather modern laptop, although I don't know whether it's because of the textures or something else.

Quote Posted by bjack

Something is keeping the FM slow even when I am inside walking down and interior hallway. That suggests to me that the whole map and every AI are actively trying the render all the time

That does not fit my observations. The only place where I suspect the AI of reducing FPS a lot is the tavern. However, others mentioned that on the hardest difficulty level, there had been more AI than on the easier levels, and the mission lagged then, but not if they played on easy or medium difficulty. I didn't notice that on my machine.

Perhaps there are several reasons for possible slowdowns in "KoI: Bad Venture". That would also explain why no one could identify certain pieces of hardware (such as some kind of low-performance graphics cards) as a source for these problems.

Quote Posted by Soul Tear

Do you think that 30-40 fps is not enough? Many players have got less than 30 fps. But that did not stop them to play. I think that 30 is quite a comfortable number. I have 28 at the start.

Concerning FPS and playability, maybe it's not so easy to draw a connection here. When I played the Thief 3 demo on a low-spec machine about ten years ago, I often got between 9 and 15 FPS in the castle, but would not have guessed it, had I not used fraps to measure FPS. Usually, it didn't lag too much. However, when playing "Right Up there in the Mountains" with Thief 2, a few spots where FPS ran as low as 9 were almost unbearable. FPS above 20 usually mean super-smooth gameplay for me.

I'm also not bothered much with drastically changing FPS. Only if it approaches slideshow level, meaning I have a hard time steering Garrett around, I usually quit playing. But that's the effect of low FPS, not of extremely variable FPS.

Yandros on 12/1/2015 at 22:15

I never voted before it closed, but would have voted Yes. I really have to commend Soul Tear, and those who preceded him like Zontik, Alexius, sterlino, Saturnine, Purah... for pushing the limits. Soul Tear's use of the engine to express his artistic vision in KoI:BV is honestly about the most brilliant stroke of them all in that regard, and it needed to be done.

If we don't push NewDark, we won't learn how to use it to its full potential. Although his and a few other recent missions are causing performance problems for some players, it lets the authoring community look into and understand what things cause performance hits, and what we can get away with. That will be a gradual process, and I think a year or two from now, it might well be possible to make a mission on par with KoI:BV artistically which runs a lot more smoothly for those who are having trouble running it now. Not because anyone upgrades components (although that will happen and will help too), but because we'll learn things, like we did recently that converting textures from PNG to DDS can make a huge difference in some cases.

Also, I don't agree that because authors have access to more eye candy now, they will start disregarding story and gameplay as the crucially important elements to a good mission which they are. Most of us who understand that are going to continue making it a focus, even while we build lovelier and hopefully more immersive environments. There are also still authors, including some newer ones, who don't care to indulge in the excesses possible with NewDark, and who are turning out missions with strong story and gameplay, and the more "classic" look and feel that some players prefer.

So hopefully moving into the future, we'll all enjoy the best of both worlds. In the near term, it does mean that some folks won't be able to (or will choose not to) play certain missions, but honestly that's always been true, just for different reasons other than low framerate and the like. For example, players who hate undead or horror probably don't play certain missions upon release, regardless of how good those missions might be otherwise, and that's always been true.

Ricebug on 13/1/2015 at 14:04

Quote Posted by cavador_8

As you know, this engine only uses one core so a fast multicore processor will not do much good.

I have an 8-core CPU. Dromed will recognize a max of 4 processors under ND. Under OD, Dromed used 100% available CPU. Now, it multi-threads perfectly, and CPU usage is down to 2%.