ZylonBane on 11/3/2015 at 21:05
That's the fun thing about religious beliefs though innit-- you find one that provides divine justification for what you like doing anyway.
Kolya on 11/3/2015 at 21:15
I found it really interesting what that French dude Nicolas Henin had to say, who had been a prisoner of the IS for months and eventually got free, apparently because France paid a huge sum. He was imprisoned with Foley and several other hostages who were killed by "Jihadi John". And what he said was: These people have very little contact with the local Islamic groups, they watch Western TV from Teletubbies to Game of Thrones and they play the same video games. They are a product of our culture.
The fact that they can't stop displaying their hatred for western values seems to suggest he's right. What would a beheading be without the internet to show it to us nonbelievers?
Tony_Tarantula on 11/3/2015 at 21:54
That's typical. I was never able to understand how they can hate western values but have cellphones loaded with as much porn as they could fit on them.
Azaran on 11/3/2015 at 22:06
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
That's typical. I was never able to understand how they can hate western values but have cellphones loaded with as much porn as they could fit on them.
Yet if they find anyone else with porn, they crucify them. They're the ultimate hypocrites. I also read somewhere (not sure if it's verified) they initiate new members sexually and film it, as a way of blackmailing them if they ever try to leave - at the same time, they're throwing suspected homosexuals off buildings. In other words, "everything is permitted, but only if we do it"
Kolya on 11/3/2015 at 22:10
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
That's typical. I was never able to understand how they can hate western values but have cellphones loaded with as much porn as they could fit on them.
You're using that apparent contradiction merely to show they are hypocrites. That's justified but a bit short sighted. The point I was trying to make is that these people are not so alien to us as we would like them to be. It may not be Islam that differentiates them from us, but a lack of perspectives in our world.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade in women's lib or freedom of speech to get these guys on board the happy ship, but still it should give us reason to think: Does really everyone get a chance to succeed to the best of their abilities?
Even if western democracies did everything perfectly there would probably still be people who wish death to us, but we're far from that, so why no use this as a chance to get better instead of degrading ourselves to their level of hatred?
SD on 11/3/2015 at 22:22
I almost have a kind of grudging respect for Isis. It's so rare to find religious folk actually following the tenets of their religion to the letter.
Manwe on 11/3/2015 at 23:04
Quote Posted by Brethren
I believe it was sometime around 2001.
Not technically a bomb, but ok I'll grant you that one. So going by Wikipedia that's (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks) 2996 civilian casualties on 9/11 and (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) 68 for Pearl Harbor (how could I forget such a tragedy!). So that's about 3064 civilian casualties in total over the last hundred years? Any other domestic conflicts I forgot to mention? I mean there are so many of them, it's hard to keep track. Now how many civilian casualties in the Middle East in the last 15 years alone? I'm no expert in the field so I'll just refer to Wikipedia again. So that would be between (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%9314%29) 18,000 and 20,000 civilian casualties for Afghanistan, and between (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) 112,000 and 123,000 for Irak. Not saying those were necessarily caused by US missiles, but I think we all agree that the US played a major role in either sparking or fueling those conflicts. So essentially, the life of one American is worth that of about 43 brown people. Seems fair. I wonder what that amounts to in ancient buildings?
Quote:
The reason i say "almost" is because a lot of the countries that Manwe approves of were also complicit in that.
I don't think you understand my position. I don't approve of what France or any other European country did or does regarding terrorists or the Middle East. I have zero respect for the French government. No one does really, our rulers are a joke. In fact I'd say I have more respect for the US for the sole reason that it's a sovereign nation. It still has control over its destiny. Except for England and maybe Germany, there aren't many sovereign nations left in the EU. We're all just lackeys to the US.
Kolya on 11/3/2015 at 23:55
You know these comparisons are going nowhere except Godwin's law. You can point out causalities like Tarantula and Azaran did (that the USA armed today's IS when they were still thought of as moderates) but the wars of the US are never going to make the atrocities of the IS look any better. What gives?
@SD: I can make up a religion and then follow it to the letter. It'll say that respect for stupid is stupid. And I am great! :D
Specter on 12/3/2015 at 00:29
Manwe, since you disapprove of many of the foreign policy decisions of the Western world towards the Islamic world, would you mind telling us what you would do? Having cited the examples of Iraq and Afghanistan, what course of action should be taken in those countries if not direct intervention?
Muzman on 12/3/2015 at 01:20
Quote Posted by Manwe
Except for England and maybe Germany, there aren't many sovereign nations left in the EU. We're all just lackeys to the US.
Take a guess what grumpy politically aware youth say in England and Germany.
Anyway, not talking to anyone in particular, I'm all for stopping drone strikes. It's a horrific and counter productive practice. But if the US is "worse" then IS are doing their damndest to catch up. There must be 200,000 casualties in the Syrian civil war now, which IS is making sure it's heavily involved in. Their death toll in Iraq rises by the hour. It is a cruel numbers game, where you can't really say "Oh well that drone strike only killed ten kids where these guys killed 20!" and look like you have a moral compass. But say this for the US; they haven't brought back slavery nor rounded up males of fighting age and summarily massacred them then sold off their women as prizes to their soldiers. With precise bureacratic efficiency I might add.
At least not that I'm aware of.
Still, it does occur to me that while being horrified and fascinated by this organisation sweeping to power and control of territory with astonishing speed and brutality is keeping us glued to the news, quite a few warlords have cut a swathe across Africa in the last 20 odd years, with bizarre and horrific fundamentalist takes on Islam and Christianity, and only pinko activist types really paid much attention.
Those guys didn't have a big PR campaign, call for fighters from all around the world and quite so many plans for world domination admittedly, but while watching IS relatively closely it's good to remember that in the broad strokes this sort of thing isn't new.
