Nicker on 12/3/2015 at 04:46
Quote Posted by Azaran
That does make a lot of sense. I still can't get over how they have no concept of beauty or appreciation for culture (or for that matter, how they're willing to torture, rape, and murder innocent people just for the fun of it). It's especially disturbing, as many of them have university degrees and a decent education from what I've heard
I think this is one of the effects of belief in the afterlife. This life and everything in it, is temporary. It's a test. It will presently be replaced with the real world. This is a justification for torture, murder and genocide.
And it is a justification for this sort of vandalism. These treasures have no value for fundamentalists because there is no future for this earth nor is there a need for a past. Anything not contributing directly to the diversion of errant souls to paradise, is either dangerous or valueless.
That includes our environment and any future for our descendents.
Once you convince someone you know what happens to them after we die, you can sell them anything. Even make them pay with their own lives or, preferably, the lives of others, of course.
PS: Can we try and avoid the willy-waving about who's cultural eradication is worse and who did it first? It's not helpful.
Fafhrd on 12/3/2015 at 05:50
Quote Posted by gigagooga
But why destroy them? Wouldn't it be better idea to sell it all to western world or something... I'm sure there will be someone willing to pay for them.
No history destroyed and IS would get their "activities" funded. ...you know, just a strategic opinion about it.
When your goal is the destruction of all cultures other than your own, this kind of logic doesn't come into it.
As an example: when the Taliban announced that they were going to destroy the Bamiyan Buddhas, quite a few people offered to pay to relocate them instead and were refused.
Nicker on 12/3/2015 at 05:55
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
When your goal is the destruction of all cultures other than your own, this kind of logic doesn't come into it.
My understanding is that ISIS and other groups have been selling the more portable treasures on the black market. It's just the things they can't transport that face their selectively righteous ire.
demagogue on 12/3/2015 at 10:08
I was reading recently about some of the roots of the modern incarnation of radical Islam. They had their own mini-version of millennium fever, well centennial fever, in 1979/1400, the same year as the Grand Mosque Seizure and the Iranian revolution. Reading up on the events leading up to the Grand Mosque Seizure, Juhayman al-Otaybi's movement, and its mixed legacy with Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, they speak as if the contemporary line of radical movements, at least the religious brands of them, aren't as old as people might think and have a common core with that period.
Incidentally the story of the Grand Mosque Seizure itself is hella dramatic and interesting. I'm not going to ask why no one's ever made a movie of it, since I don't blame any investor not wanting to touch it with a $10 bill. Still, though, it'd make for a fascinating movie.
Edit: On topic. Yeah, speaking as an international lawyer, there are rules out there that make destruction of antiquities and sites a special kind of crime under international law, if not the domestic law of the source country who always gets first right to prosecute and deal with it. It's of course one of the tragedies that happens when you get situations of failing states, where there's nothing there to prevent stuff like this happening, or protecting people caught up in its wake. The first thing is to prop the state back up so it's not failing and has some control over its own territory, then we can start thinking about how to deal with all sorts of awful crimes ISIS is committing in that vacuum.
Yakoob on 12/3/2015 at 21:16
I can kinda understand the argument from earlier how destroying statues may be worse than killing if you look at them as not just pieces of rock and marble but our cultural legacy; the people who made them may have died but they weren't forgotten thanks to these monuments and historical sites. So while I'd never say destroying stuff is bigger crime than killing, on a macro-scale of the whole mankind (think centuries) you could argue our monuments and legacy are more important or impactful than just individuals.
But that's also getting into philosophizing too much and leads to a slippery-slope of asking "so how many statues is a a human life worth."
(and 1405.38 to be exact, unless the statues are facing west)
Quote Posted by Kolya
I found it really interesting what that French dude Nicolas Henin had to say, who had been a prisoner of the IS for months and eventually got free, apparently because France paid a huge sum. He was imprisoned with Foley and several other hostages who were killed by "Jihadi John". And what he said was: These people have very little contact with the local Islamic groups, they watch Western TV from Teletubbies to Game of Thrones and they play the same video games. They are a product of our culture.
That's really interesting, did they ever explain their dichotomy of similtaneously hating the western values and enjoying them daily? I can't even imagine how hardcore the brainwashing must be to prevent a cognetivie dissonance caused by this.
"Oh man Game of Thrones is awesome! Let's decapitate all the producers. When's the next episode coming out?"
Quote:
The fact that they can't stop displaying their hatred for western values seems to suggest he's right. What would a beheading be without the internet to show it to us nonbelievers?
It's been mentioned but ISIS are probably one of the smartest and "in-touch with modern world" terrorist yet. The made a frikkin (
http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/19/6559243/isis-terror-group-releases-trailer-for-gta-like-recruitment-and) GTA mode to help them recruit gamers to their cause. And they run their own twitters too.
It's like a bunch of clever online marketers got together with the sole goal of destroying the world.
Quote Posted by Nicker
I think this is one of the effects of belief in the afterlife. ... These treasures have no value for fundamentalists because there is no future for this earth nor is there a need for a past.
And that is one scarily powerful motivator. It reminds me of (
http://mindhacks.com/2014/11/16/an-earlier-illusory-death/) Cotard's Illusion a rare psychological condition when a person becomes convinced they are dead, this life is an illusion, and everyone is either a puppet or a figment of imagination. But in their case they usually go the opposite way of losing all motivations since what's the point? Pretty interesting/bizarre stuff.
Pyrian on 12/3/2015 at 23:15
Quote Posted by Yakoob
...did they ever explain their dichotomy of similtaneously hating the western values and enjoying them daily?
Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is, here. A culture is an enormous collection of barely related ideas. There's no reason to treat it as indivisible. There's plenty of so-called western values I'm not particularly fond of myself.
Kolya on 12/3/2015 at 23:50
Yep. Cognitive dissonance and outright hypocrisy are not exclusive to IS fighters. Greens jet around the world to make holidays in exotic places, horny masses devour online porn of barely 18 year old girls but want to lynch every paedophile, objectivists feel held back by a society without which they couldn't exist, hippie chicks and wealthy elderly ladies invent female sex tourism in Africa. And you say you say you want a revolution. Well you know, we all want to change the world.
And about Game of Thrones, I'm really not surprised. Maybe it was the umpteenth head cut off or during the torture porn with Theon Greyjoy, but I clearly remember thinking that those IS guys would probably enjoy this show and asking myself what it means that we watch these decapitations for the thrill and the ones on youtube - as well, if you are quite honest.
Nicker on 12/3/2015 at 23:58
Quote Posted by Yakoob
It's been mentioned but ISIS are probably one of the smartest and "in-touch with modern world" terrorist yet.
They are using a solid colonial model too. They leave local infrastructure behind them and friendly puppets to run things. Police , emergency services, utilities, schools but especially police. They plan to stay.
Tony_Tarantula on 13/3/2015 at 00:44
Quote Posted by Nicker
I think this is one of the effects of belief in the afterlife. This life and everything in it, is temporary. It's a test. It will presently be replaced with the real world. This is a justification for torture, murder and genocide.
The general rule is that if you perform torture, murder, and genocide you're going to spend an eternity being tortured.
Quote:
And it is a justification for this sort of vandalism. These treasures have no value for fundamentalists because there is no future for this earth nor is there a need for a past. Anything not contributing directly to the diversion of errant souls to paradise, is either dangerous or valueless.
Then how do you explain the destruction of churches that took place in the Soviet Union?
I stand by my original position that you don't really need a justification when it's about "vaporizing" ideas outside of your own.
Nicker on 13/3/2015 at 04:29
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
The general rule is that if you perform torture, murder, and genocide you're going to spend an eternity being tortured.
Not if you are doing it to purify souls and protect the faith. It's ok to torture someone if you are preparing them for paradise. You know, purification in fire. Did you miss that memo?
You are thinking of karma. Different superstition altogether.
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Then how do you explain the destruction of churches that took place in the Soviet Union?
I didn't say it was the only justification, just a particularly popular one.
