Anarchic Fox on 3/12/2023 at 08:04
Quote Posted by june gloom
I've grown a lot in the intervening years. I do still remember, with embarrassment, actually being on the pro-Israel side of this debate about a decade ago. (Looking back on some of the older threads, SD has always sided with Israel, so points for consistency I guess.) I've learned a lot, about myself especially. It took me some time to really process my grief after my mom passed away, but the most important thing is that her death set me free. Free to actually see the world, free to actually be me. I went through a period where I couldn't grow because I just went from one abusive household to another, but the two years I spent in California -- notwithstanding the implosion of my relationship -- were periods of serious healing and growth for me. I try to be more loving, more empathetic. I try to understand people because for so long I didn't understand myself. I'm in a loving, healthy relationship and it's exactly what I need, with a partner who understands
me. I've learned how to be a better person, a better partner. I'm not so hung up on politics like I used to be five years ago; I was a pretty intense ideologue, subscribing to a specific set of political beliefs in the hopes of finding meaning in my life. These days I consider myself somewhere in a vague cloud of post-left anarchism/queer liberation/anti-colonialism. You can laugh if you want, I don't care. At least I know in my heart I'm on the right side of history. That's all that matters.
I'm glad you're doing better, and that there's affection in your life now. There's more warmth and joy out there for you, though it isn't here.
There will be a few people here who remember you fondly. Oddly, I'm one of them, because exploding at you was what got me back into posting here. Be well.
Sulphur on 3/12/2023 at 09:43
We were friends once, so I'm only saying this because we were. We had some good times, june, and we had a lot of times that just weren't any good. When it comes to communicating, as right as you may have been in some things, an argument isn't something to be won by sheer force of will. Sometimes, when it gets unpleasant, it takes looking back at yourself and examining the things you don't want to or don't think you need to, and reassessing your approach to all of it. That is what makes a difference. This is one of the last things I want to say to you, and it really is absolutely up to you how you take it.
In the end, as long as you've got a relationship that shows you what honest, naked truth looks like, hold onto it. Here's to growing up, one minute at a time. See you around, if we ever connect somewhere in the future. And if not, be well. o7
mxleader on 3/12/2023 at 11:23
@june gloom: That's was a really long way to say you're taking your toys and going home, and telling us that you are better than us. Thanks for your input.
Also, calling someone a racist but then commenting on personality characteristics based on their age, gender and whiteness is racist, bigoted and hypocritical.
SD on 3/12/2023 at 18:07
Quote Posted by june gloom
No. You don't get to play this game. You are not entitled to a debate, nor are you worth debating with. Your arguments, such as they are, wrapped in slogans, misinformation and borderline libel (don't think I didn't see your cute little tags framing the entire discussion as "Jews vs. Nazis,") are unfounded in reality and unworthy of discussion.
I don't like you, SD. I have never liked you. Every interaction I've ever had with you has been negative; I fully admit my acidic personality played a role, but in recent years I've gotten to see just how much of a reactionary you are, blaming trans people for your obsession with genitals and dreaming of empire. You're a profoundly unserious little man, a creepy little crypto-fascist with some serious sexual hangups and making it everyone else's problem.
Let's face it: you're a racist and an antisemite and so are several other people in this thread. Trying to argue that all Jews monolithically support Israel is in itself antisemitic,
especially when you include the increasingly common followup argument that the Jews who don't support Israel "aren't really Jews" or (
https://twitter.com/songsofyoni/status/1712169046077010141) forsake their Jewishness. But you don't care -- you're going to continue to frame this as a battle between good and evil, so you can feel good about yourself. So I'm not going to waste any further time on you.
I don't want to waste anyone's time with a lengthy response to this, except to say that I hope in future you are able to get a more tenuous grasp on reality, because this is the biggest pile of hypocritical straw-manning horseshit I've seen in a very long time.
Tocky on 3/12/2023 at 18:15
Opposing arguments bring out points that would otherwise never be examined. I don't consider anyone to be my enemy because they don't think like me. Unless someone insults my family, whom I dearly love, then I forget and hold them no ill will. And I always give a second chance. That is a healthier way to live life. To go anywhere and think that everyone must think like you and be angry that they don't is unhealthy. To want that enforced at the point of banning is unhealthy for a forum. At least part of the reason I'm a happy sort is because I realize I can be wrong. But I have to be convinced in part or in whole because often it's just different perspectives and neither side is entirely right.
I appreciate all of you. I'm glad you stayed. I find you interesting people. I'm glad you speak your minds. The world is a complicated place and if anyone knew all the answers they would be ruling it.
At least june left us with a good song and I hope finds better mental health elsewhere. That comes more from introspection though. A dear friend that I miss had "wherever you go there you are" as her tag line. It applies here.
SD on 3/12/2023 at 18:48
Quote Posted by mxleader
Also, calling someone a racist but then commenting on personality characteristics based on their age, gender and whiteness is racist, bigoted and hypocritical.
Not the first time june gloom has felt it necessary to comment on the skin colour of other forum members, but hopefully the last. Who can forget their vendetta against a mixed race member of the forum, "whiter than Shaun King" I believe was the phrase used. There's only so many times you can make excuses for that kind of behaviour.
Also what's the deal with gentiles telling Jews what antisemitism is? White people trying to define racism for minorities - particularly to the extent of accusing a member of that minority of being racist against their own group - just smacks of white privilege.
A final note: it should have been obvious to anyone that my tag "Jews vs Nazis", which seems to have been deleted by persons unknown, was equating Hamas with Nazis. The idea that it was intended to refer to anyone here is as risible as it is offensive.
SD on 3/12/2023 at 19:46
Quote Posted by Tocky
Opposing arguments bring out points that would otherwise never be examined. I don't consider anyone to be my enemy because they don't think like me. Unless someone insults my family, whom I dearly love, then I forget and hold them no ill will. And I always give a second chance. That is a healthier way to live life. To go anywhere and think that everyone must think like you and be angry that they don't is unhealthy. To want that enforced at the point of banning is unhealthy for a forum. At least part of the reason I'm a happy sort is because I realize I can be wrong. But I have to be convinced in part or in whole because often it's just different perspectives and neither side is entirely right.
I'm with you, I love hearing different perspectives. On occasion they've helped me refine or even alter my own opinions. One of the (many) things june got wrong in their tawdry little diatribe was that I have always been fervently pro-Israel. It's actually not the case, and anyone can check my old posts on the topic if they don't believe me. This is how my opinion changed.
My great-grandparents were born in Lithuania, later being forced West, like so many Jews in imperial Russia, as they fled the pogroms of the 19th century. And I always viewed them as a persecuted Eastern European religious minority, never giving much thought as to how or why they ended up in the Baltic in the first place. I scoffed whenever I heard people talk about making Aliyah. Why would you want to go and live
there?
Then I started listening to Zionists. They helped me realise that what binds Jews is not religion, but a shared origin; moreover, that origin is within the Levant, and it is only colonialism and imperialism that dispossessed them of their land in the first place. Once I accepted that Jews are who they said they were, then it was easy for me to accept they have a legitimate claim to self-determination in their homeland, like all indigenous people. That just because an injustice is historical, does not mean that restitution should be impossible.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't need to have any countries along ethnic lines - heck, we wouldn't even need
any countries at all - but this is not an ideal world. Establishing a state for Jewish people is not racist any more than opening a battered women's refuge is sexist. The idea that Jews can be safe in any Middle Eastern entity where they are not the majority has unfortunately proven to be a fantasy. So I
must believe that Israel has a right to exist, because the alternative is to doom Jewish people to the fickle finger of fate. And history has shown that God's Chosen People are certainly not divinely blessed.
Like the majority of Jewish people, I don't want or expect Jews to have the entirety of Palestine returned to them. Arabs live there as well, and while they may not be indigenous like us, they're there now, and some of them have been there a very long time. That gives them a legitimate territorial claim too, which is why I've consistently opposed expansion of settlements in the West Bank. There is a room enough for Israel and Palestine in ancient Judea.
However one thing I do know is that peace, and therefore a two state solution, is impossible while Hamas still rules the roost in Gaza. These are eggs you are going to need to break if you want that omelette. There is no shame in supporting a war of eradication against Hamas, even though you know there will be civilian casualties, because this is a death cult which embeds itself within civil populations and has no regard for human life. Only when there is no Hamas can there be a future.
People are free to disagree with me, but don't call me a crypto-fascist while doing so, because it isn't true. I've spent my life defending liberalism and democracy. And I'm not going to make an exception for the liberal democracy that Jews have established in the Middle East.
Starker on 3/12/2023 at 20:54
Israel has been handing out weapons to its citizens, but there doesn't seem to be any thought put into what to do in a situation where they would be mistaken for a terrorist, as terrorists are given neither mercy nor justice:
Quote:
(
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-12-02/ty-article/.premium/the-hero-in-the-jerusalem-shooting-attack-was-executed/0000018c-2c44-df3f-a58c-fe7fe0de0000)
Yuval Doron Kestelman, a brave citizen who rushed to the scene of a terror attack in Jerusalem on Thursday and killed the terrorists, was shot and killed by soldiers who arrived on the scene after him.
Errors can happen at the scene of such incidents, such as in cases of friendly fire or mistaken identity. But this is not what happened there. Kestelman threw down his pistol and raised his arms, opening his jacket to show that he was not carrying an explosive device. He begged for his life and was shot anyway, when it was clear that he posed no danger.
Kestelman's tragic death stems from the fact that the person who shot him was convinced that he was an Arab terrorist. But the real reason is the conception that a terrorist deserves to die and cannot emerge alive from an incident.
[...]
mxleader on 5/12/2023 at 03:18
Quote Posted by Starker
Israel has been handing out weapons to its citizens, but there doesn't seem to be any thought put into what to do in a situation where they would be mistaken for a terrorist, as terrorists are given neither mercy nor justice:
Yeah, that's a bad idea all around and I love me some free guns. One of the big problems with fighting terrorists is it is very difficult to determine who is and who isn't a terrorist in a tense situation. That kind of trigger work takes a lot of specialized training that very few have. Of course there could have been confusion with civilians on scene pointing fingers in confusion. It's a bad situation only made worse by handing out weapons to the untrained during a conflict. The fact that the IDF is handing out weapons to civilians shows either an excessively high paranoia level or there is real desperation in some areas.
Tocky on 5/12/2023 at 04:29
Plus there is the whole don't shoot someone who has no weapon on them anymore, has their hands on their head, and is obeying your every command thing. Execution is a bad way of law enforcement.
