It's official: Starcraft 2!

Swiss Mercenary on 23/9/2010 at 04:16

The problems Zerg had in 1.0 at the pro level was not because of mid or late-game problems, or even because of their units.

They stemmed from how aggressive Terran/Protoss openings (Bunker rushes, 5 Barracks reaper spam, Double gateway) would leave Zerg playing at a disadvantage in the mid-game.

With the 1.1 changes, Zerg should be able to secure a safe fast expansion practically every single game, which will give them a fair chance in mid-late game.

Marauders are quite fine - they are not good at all against light, and they can't shoot air. The only questionable aspect of them is how quickly 4 Marauders in a Medevac can snipe tech structures.

Quote Posted by Kuuso

I've seen people go on about the ultras like they're imba (well, they might be!), but as far as I know they clearly stated in the patch that they would be removing the ram-attack so the normal attack (in other words cleave) works on buildings. To me that was always obvious it would cleave nearby things.

Cleaving workers on the other side of a Command Center is not "Nearby".

Koki on 23/9/2010 at 06:43

Quote Posted by Swiss Mercenary

Marauders are quite fine - they are not good at all against light, and they can't shoot air. The only questionable aspect of them is how quickly 4 Marauders in a Medevac can snipe tech structures.

Yeah, unfortunately MMM means Marauder Marine Medivac, not Marauder Marauder Marauder.

Swiss Mercenary on 23/9/2010 at 07:47

Unfortunately for Koki, there's a million and one ways to kill marines quickly.

Banelings, Fungal Growth, Roaches, Hydralisks, Sentries, Colossi, Storm, Hellions, Tanks... More then half of those are also quite effective against Marauders. I do realize that that those units require slightly more then stim and attack-move, so I can see why he may be having trouble.

There's a reason the vast majority of pro TvZ consists of mech play, while TvP goes heavily into ghosts and starport units.

Ladder games are a terrible source for judging balance. A lot of people playing at the diamond level have one all-in low-skill build that they play.

Koki on 23/9/2010 at 07:55

Wow, that's an impressive amount of late game tech. Unfortunately on semi-pro and pro levels games rarely reach that stage. Hope you'll see it for yourself someday!

EvaUnit02 on 23/9/2010 at 07:57

What do you care about SC2's MP anyway? It's not like pirated copies can play online.

Swiss Mercenary on 23/9/2010 at 07:58

Quote Posted by Koki

Wow, that's an impressive amount of late game tech. Unfortunately on semi-pro and pro levels games rarely reach that stage. Hope you'll see it for yourself someday!

Banelings, Hydralisks, Storm, Colossi, Tanks, and Helions are late-game? (In standard play, some races tech faster then others...)

Pro games rarely reach that stage? Must explain why most of the GSL matches have been over 20 minutes. The ones where people didn't proxy rush, that is. Have you ever actually watched one? Or do you get all of your opinions off internet forums?

Koki on 23/9/2010 at 10:49

Banelings are melee(concussive shells), HT are late(and storm can't kill Marauders anyway), Colossi are armored(Marauders), Tanks are armored and their DPS sucks both against Marines(who now won't even die in one hit) and Marauders(who need three hits, or nine seconds, to kill one) and Hellions will melt the moment they will enter Marauders' range.

Nameless Voice on 23/9/2010 at 11:41

Banelings mixed with zerglings and roaches to draw fire will melt the marines out of an MMM ball easily (going by the pro games I've seen, I don't play zerg). Enough will even take out the marauders.

A psi storm will force the MMM ball to move to avoid taking serious damage, as a storm will kill all the marines if they don't dodge it. High templar can also snipe off the medivacs with Feedback to stop them from healing up after retreating from the storm. Colossi have more range than the MMM ball and can abuse terrain, though they obviously need zealot and immortal backup to keep the enemy away if they are in the open.

Since tank damage to armoured (e.g. Marauders) hasn't changed, enough of them in a defensive position will still destroy Marauders en masse. A few Raven Seeker Missiles thrown into the ball will also do wonders, as will some Point Defence Drones to block the Marauders' fire.

Yes, those are late-game units, but a significantly-sized army of MMM is also a late-game army. You just need to scout out your enemy and be ready to counter.

It doesn't change that MMM is a very easy way to play though, as you can get good results by simply attack-moving your ball forwards without having to do much micro.

Kuuso on 23/9/2010 at 12:04

Quote Posted by Swiss Mercenary

I think the bolded part is important here. I know the game is balanced with competitive play in mind (which is an another can of worms...), but it's just so easy to play Terran MMM. Sure, on competitive level it's harder, but in the level most people play (we!), You can pretty much waltz into a base by clicking Stim on and attack.

It's way harder trying to counter that (speaking as zerg here), even though you're at the same skill level. Oops, You fucked up with fungal growth, gg. Oops, your banelings weren't positioned just right, gg. I feel that zerg is punished quite a much for small mistakes, which is not the same for terran.

Ps. This is why I usually concentrate on harassing a shit ton and ending fast even though I'd like to play macro zerg more.

Swiss Mercenary on 23/9/2010 at 17:27

Quote:

Banelings are melee(concussive shells), HT are late(and storm can't kill Marauders anyway), Colossi are armored(Marauders), Tanks are armored and their DPS sucks both against Marines(who now won't even die in one hit) and Marauders(who need three hits, or nine seconds, to kill one) and Hellions will melt the moment they will enter Marauders' range.

Now I can tell for sure that pirated copies can't play online.

Colossi and tanks are armored? So what? 9 range. 11 range. Splash. And I haven't even touched force fields.

Quote:

I think the bolded part is important here.

It certainly is. It's pretty much why professional players don't complain about marauders (With the possible exception of their damage to buildings), and why by the tail end of beta, most beta testers didn't, either.

Is one base all-in Terran that spams marines and marauders easier to play at low skill levels then other races? Yeah. Will it matter in a few months? Not really.