d0om on 25/2/2011 at 13:57
Queens can also spawn creep and heal units with their energy, which are both important.
If you forget to spawn larva a few times, you can use the energy healing or expanding creep faster.
You can also build a hatchery rather than a queen if you want more larva without any macro. 300min for 1/15s rather than 150min +2supply for 4 / 40s. It would be nice if you could at least queue up a spawn larva on the hatchery.
Nameless Voice on 25/2/2011 at 14:25
Yes, but you can have any number of queens, so if you want to spread creep or heal, you should really spawn another queen to do it. That's why it sort of fails as a choice mechanic. You can't really build extra orbital commands or nexii (poor cost/benefit ratio), but you can easily build more queens - plus they're a good early <s>attack</s> defensive unit.
Koki on 25/2/2011 at 14:26
Quote Posted by Kuuso
The spawn larva mechanic, as well as the MULE/scan and protoss Chrono boosts were added because the game would have been too easy in the high levels without them.
...so how exactly do they make the game harder in any way?
Kuuso on 25/2/2011 at 14:35
Queens are more versatile that you make them to be. They're awesome anti-air and fighting units with heal and creep spawn. They can block off ramps as well. When you watch someone like Dimaga doing his heavy queen play, you see they're more than just larva spawners. Toss/terran do build up energy, but you can't do that early game or it will cost you. Toss is a bit one-sided, but Terran do have to think what they do since every scan costs them a lot (in not making a mule).
I'm not saying that I think any of these boosts are brilliant choices, but they're far better than having 12 units per control group and not being able to route drones to mineral gathering directly.
I don't know at what level you play, but I've noticed that roaches are not that good against toss in Diamond/ high plat. It's all about toss knowing how to use sentries, which isn't that hard.
Koki, because they make you divide attention more. Obviously.
Dresden on 25/2/2011 at 15:16
Eh? Roaches are good against all gateway units and they can burrow move under force fields.
Nameless Voice on 25/2/2011 at 16:45
Quote Posted by Kuuso
Queens are more versatile that you make them to be. They're awesome anti-air and fighting units with heal and creep spawn.
I never said they're not good units, they are. The problem is that you can easily build a second queen, making your primary hatchery queen used solely for spawning larvae - making her a one-trick wonder while the other queen uses the other abilities. Again, it comes down to the protoss and the terrans having to choose what to do with their macro ability, while the zerg just have to constantly remember to spam it, and get seriously penalised for missing it, while the terrans and protoss have some leeway.
Quote Posted by Kuuso
I don't know at what level you play, but I've noticed that roaches are not that good against toss in Diamond/ high plat. It's all about toss knowing how to use sentries, which isn't that hard.
I haven't really played lately, and I mostly play team games, but I'm probably somewhere in platinum league. I'm in plat 1v1 and 2v2 random (neither of which I've played that many games of), but my 2v2 team has been stuck at #1 in gold league for ages. Not playing for a few weeks has probably dropped us to #2 or #3 by now.
Either way, forcefields are micro. As I said, you need good micro to beat mass roach, while the zerg player just needs to a-move. Same thing with mass marine-marauders. Basically, protoss gateway units are a tiny bit too weak, and they need to compensate with good forcefield placement, because forcefields are very powerful.
I'm not sure if I'd say roaches are overpowered, but I do think that marauders are. Neither are unbeatable, but marauders are just a tiny bit too strong for where they are in the tech tree - they massacre stalkers, and their concussion shells let them easily kite zealots, which are supposed to be their main early-game counter. It bugs me, because you can't possibly get Charge by the time the marauders can get concussive shells.
d0om on 25/2/2011 at 17:00
Can you forcefield to stop them retreating from your zealots?
I haven't played Protoss, only Zerg so far for multiplayer.
Roaches *can* just a-move, but if you have got burrow then you can micro them to amazingly boost their effectiveness since they can tunnel underground and re-emerge fully healed 10 seconds later (or tunnel if you have the claws upgrade and appear behind enemy lines!) You might not notice a nearly-dead Roach burrow, and think you killed it and think the new one un-burrowing was a new one coming from the hatch? If you have an observer you might find them much easier to kill! :)
Using good burrow micro I've had 5-6 roaches walk all over 5 Zealots + 4 Stalkers with minimal losses. Burrow anyone who is wounded, retreat to max range of zealots, unburrow and attack. Protoss often go for void rays early which means no robotics = no observer = roaches kill them all :)
Nameless Voice on 25/2/2011 at 17:11
Yes, you can use forcefields to stop a retreat, unless they have burrow and tunnelling claws.
The sad things is, I rarely see burrow and tunnelling claws being researched. Even less so watching pro games, where no one ever seems to research burrow at all. It's sadly underused.
Yeah, I miss playing 2v2 on silver league where the protoss players would almost always go mass void ray spam. Very annoying the first few times it happens, but very easy to beat once you understand it. Of course, void rays got totally nerfed now, so it's not that viable. Not that they didn't need a nerf, they were definitely overpowered. Frankly, I think they shouldn't have changed the damage, but instead made them lose their charge when switching attack targets, but oh well.
Kuuso on 25/2/2011 at 18:00
Dumping all that gas on early/mid on burrow, speed and tunneling claws is very risky and it only works if your opponent can't scout. Roaches fare well in mid-game when the armies are still middlish sizes, but they're still bad "siege" units going up ramps or attacking naturals. Good building placement can pretty much nullify roaches when they're offensive.
d0om on 25/2/2011 at 18:35
Yeah, it is expensive. When I've done it, I've only gone for tunneling claws and burrow rather than speed, since you don't need it if you can move while burrowed really. Costs you 250 gas which is 10 roaches or 5 hydralisks, so probably not worth it in pro games. Its hilarious against people who don't get detectors early though. Can really turn the tide against mass stalkers, and if void rays turn up can save your roaches from being annihilated.
I had a great game against a Terran where I couldn't get my roaches into his base so I left them outside blocking his natural, and researched claws+burrow. I then sent them into his base by waiting for him to lower his supply depot (he moved his entire army out to try to kill the roaches, but when he couldn't see them sent them to my base.) I moved them to his mineral line, built 6 spine crawlers at my ramp and unburrowed when he was halfway between our two bases. All his workers were swiftly executed along with most of his base. He pressed on to my base, but was soundly defeated by the crawlers and some new roaches.
Doesn't work so well vs protoss as they tend to use cannons to defend their ramp. Terran often don't get detectors for ages (as they have scan) but they often don't scan outside their base before lowering their supply depots as they are MULE / supplying and scan your base to scout instead. You could probably do some good overlord drops of roaches/infesters and tunnel to their workers before wiping them out, but by the time you have overlord speed and transport they probably have missile turrets / cannon protecting their mineral line.
