Koki on 8/5/2011 at 09:51
^ Sick fuck
To actually address some of Nameless Voice's points - I really don't know about making the UI better. Obviously the player shouldn't have to fight against the UI, but it is clear that's what increases difficulty curve and makes Brood War more competetive. But UI changes are one thing, and auto-microing are another - sorry, but if you have a problem with micro you shouldn't be playing an RTS.
The thing with Spawn Larva is that it makes ZvZ much more forgiving. In Brood War ZvZ is balanced on tip of a needle. You lose one drone to early zergling harass and because of how the larva spawn works it creates a snowball effect that ends up with the enemy getting more and more ahead as the game goes on. With spawn larva you will almost always have more available larva than you need, which pretty much eliminates larva as the "third resource".
Briareos H on 8/5/2011 at 10:05
The Mr Plinkett reference was a bit heavy, but it was a good read. I'm one of those guys more interested in engrossing and strategy-driven solo than in timed missions or endless tutorials so I can fully get behind your analysis of SP.
BTW I was surprised to see that most of your review was centered around SP, there's barely a mention of the balance problems in MP which is usually the crux of the matter in people's reviews of RTS games. Good thing.
When I think back about SC2, the only thing that springs to mind is that "comic relief" provided by the two TV anchors. They were one-dimensional and badly written in addition to serving no actual purpose in the game - that I remember them better than the actual missions tells a lot.
Ostriig on 8/5/2011 at 12:44
Quote Posted by Briareos H
The Mr Plinkett reference was a bit heavy
It worked out quite nicely for me since I'd just watched the Episode 3 review two days ago. I like it when things come together like that.
Nameless Voice on 8/5/2011 at 13:55
Quote Posted by Koki
But UI changes are one thing, and auto-microing are another - sorry, but if you have a problem with micro you shouldn't be playing an RTS.
Hmmm, what auto-micro are you referring to?
Starcraft 2 offers very little in terms of that. The way I see it, anything which is completely and utterly mechanical, which has to be done no matter what, should allow for automation (e.g. that you can now waypoint workers to minerals without having to assign every single one manually), and for the most part that's the only stuff which has been automated in SC2. More important things, like using abilities, arranging troops and focus-firing enemies have not been automated, specifically because those are not completely mechanical, you have to decide when and where and what to do - e.g. they are micro-managing strategy.
To me, micro in an RTS should be about deciding what you want your units to do quickly and then ordering them to do it, it shouldn't be about needing to click twenty more times to fight with the interface (e.g. cloning over smart casting). Sure, that stuff helps make the game more competitive at the professional levels, but it also reduces it to a state where being able to click faster becomes more important than actual strategy, which reduces the game's value as a strategy game overall.
The only reason I say that the queen larvae injection should be automated is because there's no choice, it's completely mechanical and it's extremely unforgiving should you miss a perfect timing. A lot of zerg players are probably used to it and like it, but to me it's a huge reason to avoid zerg and not touch them with a barge pole. And when a race has such a huge deterrent towards more casual gamers playing it, that's breaking Blizzard's "easy to pick up, hard to master" principle - no one wants to pick them up in the first place.
Then again, it might just be me who hates the idea of it.
catbarf on 8/5/2011 at 15:10
I've been playing SC2 somewhat (multiplayer, I agree that the single-player is wtfstupid), and I have to say that there's a lot about Zerg in particular that makes them extremely frustrating to play, and I'd say much more difficult and less forgiving than Terrans and Protoss. Unlike the other two, they can't place their buildings right on the base entrance ramp and become virtually immune to early rush. Larva themselves add a third resource to manage, and you can't just build six of a specific unit-producing building and quickly amass an army (On the other hand, you don't have to specialize in any one unit type, but it's still very difficult to switch economy to totally different units midgame). The spawn larvae mechanic is interesting but is a couple pointless clicks that by all rights should be autocast, and adds yet another thing to try and manage in the middle of a battle. Plus Zerg have no other Tier 1 unit besides Queens that can hit air, so if the enemy goes straight for air units and you don't hit them early you're pretty fucked, and all Zerg units are cripplingly overspecialized (Those Roaches are nice until the enemy just builds a few Marauders) and have the resilience of wet tissue paper, leaving no room for failure.
If you play Terrans, on the other hand, you build a barracks and supply depot on your ramp to deal with Zergling rush, then start building up a giant ball of Marines, Marauders, and Medevacs, grab the research for each and go attack-move around the map. The extent of the micro required is to remember to hit stimpaks every once in a while. It's piss-easy and disappointingly effective.
Nameless Voice on 8/5/2011 at 17:11
Yeah, I agree with that. Terrans' MMM ball is just way too powerful and requires very little micro to use effectively. Protoss' stalker/colossi ball is also similar. I think both of those two seriously need a nerf, or, better, something should be introduced to easily counter them with a little skill. Psionic storm used to be a good counter for careless MMM, but with the removal of Khaydarin Amulet it's become a lot less effective. Protoss don't really have any counter to stalker/colossi apart from building more colossi of their own, which depresses me.
CCCToad on 8/5/2011 at 19:38
Wish I'd read all those posts before buying it.
Still working on singleplayer, unfortunately. The fact of the matter is that with most Strategy games you won't stand a chance unless you first go through SP and mess around with skirmishes before going online.
Kuuso on 9/5/2011 at 07:11
Actually read all of Koki's post. I agree on everything about SP basically, albeit I don't care much about the logical fallacies they conduct. The campaign was very unsatisfactory, easy as hell with no choices to be made.
The MP is why the game exists though and it's great. Of course it is "easier" with better UI and removing of stupid caps like 12 units per control group. Sure, these arbitrary limits made the game harder, more micro-intensive, but they also made it more annoying to play. SC2 does away with that, which is good. A noob can't still micro like a pro in SC2 either, so I don't see what's the problem.
Anyone who says the game isn't doing good as Esports is an idiot. I think it's already bigger than Brood War. The top players are good and are doing innovative stuff, just like in brood war and there's some really epic matches about.
As for balance, it's ok. Brood War was "imbalanced" much of it's existence, just like SC2 will be, but it's stupid to state it would actually favour any side. Unless you're chilling at High Masters or Grand Master, it's more of your skill that's the cap than the race you're playing.
Koki on 9/5/2011 at 10:29
Quote Posted by Kuuso
Anyone who says the game isn't doing good as Esports is an idiot. I think it's already bigger than Brood War. The top players are good and are doing innovative stuff, just like in brood war and there's some really epic matches about.
Starcraft 2
had to be an immediate esport success, since it's, well, a sequel to Starcraft. It's the staying power that's the problem.
Yakoob on 10/5/2011 at 15:28
Which, arguably, is terrible for the developer. They only get the money once. If anything, you'd want your staying power as low as possible so when you release a sequel (or triquel) people would switch to that instead of staying with the old one (hello CS vs CS Source).
... unless you start selling hats or charge a monthly fee.
