Starker on 5/10/2019 at 06:46
Hmm? But why else bring it up in this thread of all places in response to Epstein's suicide? And what's that about fake news press?
Trance on 5/10/2019 at 12:58
I assume because it was the only extant thread which had some relevance to the topic he wanted to discuss. And I think what he has a problem with, and indeed what
I have a problem with, is the fact that in this modern era of social media, allegations need not be proven first before someone's life, reputation, and career are ruined over them. The presumption of guilt that naturally follows from the blanket policy of "believe women" has allowed it to be weaponized for political purposes.
One recent example I've heard about concerns allegations made against one of the designers of the game Night in the Woods, Alec Holowka, who about a month ago committed suicide after allegations of abuse were leveled at him by Zoe Quinn (yes, THAT Zoe Quinn). A couple weeks later, (
https://www.thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-zoe-quinns-allegations-are-falling-apart/) internet sleuths located a collection of Zoe's deleted tweets from the time period mentioned in the allegations, including a podcast she attended, which, in my opinion, discredit those allegations entirely. Zoe was well aware of Alec's long battle with suicidal ideation, and was well aware of what consequences can befall someone nowadays when they're the target of abuse allegations on social media. Alec was effectively unpersoned in the indie game community, with no further career prospects in sight. The life he was working toward was brought to an abrupt end without so much as a scrap of evidence needed to do it. To me, Zoe killed that man, just as surely as if she had done the deed herself.
It was a tragic and inevitable consequence of accepting allegations without evidence. Incidents like this just reinforce for me how vital it is to our society that we have a presumption of innocence in law. It's true that a lot of police departments have got some serious procedural problems that need fixing when it comes to following up on rape reports, but that's not a good enough reason for me to embrace mob justice and discard any need for evidence. Mobs are notoriously bad at critical thinking.
(Disclaimer: this is not about Epstein)
Starker on 5/10/2019 at 16:21
There is no such blanket policy, though? The default is still to discredit, find any and all excuses not to take such accusations seriously, try to poke hole in the story of the abused. It happened not that long ago with Christine Ford, for example. And isn't this happening with your very own example? Isn't that the first reaction she's getting? People "sleuthing" and trying to discredit her, and not at all rushing to take her seriously?
When famous people like Epstein and Weinstein and Cosby face "mob justice", it's because they have been getting away with it so long, it's precisely because the system is so heavily tilted against the victims that the only recourse is for the "fake news press" to step in and for victims to come out in the open.
Meanwhile, conservative pundits and internet reactionaries turn it around and make it all about men and male victimhood:
[video=youtube;4LZ3P1sv9jE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LZ3P1sv9jE[/video]
Trance on 5/10/2019 at 16:23
No, the first reaction, as I mentioned, was for Alec's professional ties to be cut from the outside by all his industry connections. People believed the accuser first, and only after he killed himself was anyone motivated to dig deeper. Meanwhile, Zoe Quinn continues to enjoy professional success with a new comic book deal with Marvel, unperturbed by the events of the past month. How is that justice?
Starker on 5/10/2019 at 16:31
And how do you know there weren't other issues that pushed people to cut ties? From your own article:
Quote:
Scott Benson, Holowka's development teammate, issued a statement on Kickstarter after the decision to cut ties with Holowka was made, emphasizing that he had a continual history of emotional instability and behavioural problems that he had sought assistance for at different points in time. In the Kickstarter statement, Benson also noted that the termination was not a result of “mobbing” or other social pressures
Trance on 5/10/2019 at 16:39
He did that literally the day after the allegations were made. If it had been sometime before, I would believe the reasons he gave for doing it. But one day afterward? Sorry, no. Bullshit. Alec had been put in the crosshairs, and Scott didn't want to get hit with the splash.
Starker on 5/10/2019 at 16:50
So, what about all the other stories where absolutely nothing happened to the accused:
(
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3kxd99/games-industry-wrestles-with-multiple-new-allegations-of-abuse)
And what about all the abusers out there who continue to enjoy professional success and not face any consequences for their actions while their victims suffer in silence and even commit suicide. How is that justice? And what about future victims? From the article:
Quote:
“I am not here to ruin your life,” said Vanir. “I am here to keep you from ruining the lives of others.”
And doesn't it make you wonder why Quinn is being singled out, that it's her story that's being questioned and having poked holes into, when other people also came forward saying they had been abused by Holowka?
Sulphur on 5/10/2019 at 16:58
Quote Posted by Trance
He did that literally the day after the allegations were made. If it had been sometime before, I would believe the reasons he gave for doing it. But one day afterward? Sorry, no. Bullshit. Alec had been put in the crosshairs, and Scott didn't want to get hit with the splash.
(
https://medium.com/@bombsfall/alec-2618dc1e23e) This is what Scott had to say, for the benefit of people who haven't read it. It checks off years of mental abuse and trauma while working with Alec.
There are multiple people mentioned being in Alec's unstable orbit and his threats of suicide. It's reasonable to conclude that Scott wrote it because he no longer needed to worry about something he said being the reason for Alec taking his own life. It's also reasonable to conclude that this was also written to distance himself from Alec -- because that'd be the pragmatic thing to do. But it isn't reasonable to assume everyone, including Alec's sister, made up these issues out of whole cloth, out of thin air, and that the man was being unfairly maligned. That smacks of conspiracy with multiple agents, and while a man has taken his life, I'm going to be the dick who points out this isn't that big of a deal to be a conspiracy.
Pyrian on 5/10/2019 at 17:06
Quote:
It's true that a lot of police departments have got some serious procedural problems that need fixing when it comes to following up on rape reports, but that's not a good enough reason for me to embrace mob justice and discard any need for evidence.
Don't underestimate the degree to which a lack of faith in the justice system leads directly to vigilantism, whether you personally (not directly victimized) embrace it or not.
Quote Posted by Trance
He did that literally the day after the allegations were made. If it had been sometime before, I would believe the reasons he gave for doing it. But one day afterward? Sorry, no. Bullshit. Alec had been put in the crosshairs, and Scott didn't want to get hit with the splash.
For a guy who very recently gave a little writeup about allegations without evidence, that's one
helluva stretch. It's just the "leaving the party" effect: nobody wants to be first, but once the exodus begins, nobody wants to be last, either.
Anyway, that
is the principle point and value of these finally-speaking-up trends: Making it safer for everyone
else to come forward with their
own stories. People's behavioral patterns rarely results in isolated incidents. And I, for one, feel a lot better about believing such allegations when there's a host of witnesses - that's evidence.
But you? Why bother even talking about evidence when you clearly can find any reason, no matter how irrelevant or made up, to dismiss all of the evidence?
Starker on 5/10/2019 at 17:50
Alec sounds like a really troubled guy. And this really puts things in a very different perspective:
Quote:
To the outside observer, this all started on a Tuesday and ended on a Saturday. But for a lot of us, it was much longer than that. This story started in 2013 for me. For some it started in 2005. Or in 2009. Or 2018.
[...]
After a lot of very hard thinking and checking up we announced that we had cut ties with Alec. Some folks reported this as us “firing” Alec, when there was nothing to fire him from. Infinite Fall isn't a company. It's a name we picked for our collaboration. There's no Infinite Fall HQ, no salary to cut. We weren't working on any big money-making project he'd no longer be a part of. It's more like we broke up or something. And to be honest he'd already moved on.
[...]
While I praise Alec's work, consider this- people left the industry because of what he did. People gave up their dreams, the art they wanted to make. People, drawn by the promise of working with a well known indie developer, found themselves caught between giving up their dreams and financial stability and getting away from him. People spent years with him as a destructive presence in their lives. People developed PTSD. People spent hours and money on therapy. People felt trapped by him. It's hard for me to see how one man's work is worth what he did to so many others.