GlasWolf on 5/1/2006 at 13:40
Lockpicking.
hopper on 5/1/2006 at 13:55
Actually, there are two things from TDS that I liked, and which T1/2 didn't have: Lockpicking and dagger.
Lockpicking because you actually get some stuff to do to make a lock open, and it takes less or more time to do it depending on your skill.
Dagger because as a thief it makes much more sense for Garrett to carry it around on thieving raids than does a claymore. Being the lousy fighter he is, Garrett is SUPPOSED to avoid melee fighting if he can avoid it. Sneak around or backstab are his usual options. What good is a BFS if he can't use it?
Of course, these are minor points in the overall assessment. It's hard to put the finger on why, but TDS to me seemed sort of lifeless and limp compared to the first two.
242 on 5/1/2006 at 16:44
Quote Posted by sparhawk
What exactly was it, that was made better in TDS? Except technical things like graphics engine or physics (which was not really used at all).
I remember a whole lot of things that were done worse, but I can't remember a single thing about gameplay where I actually thought it was an improvement.
What we are talking about - the blackjacking system.
You obviousy didn't play TDS enough if compared with T1/2/FMs to remember even the most prominent advantages.
Also (all as things *by itself*, not mentioning exclusively graphics features like bumpmapping etc.):
Dynamic shadows
Lockpicking system
The oil flask (VERY funny thing) and ability of AIs to slip and kill themselves.
AIs who suddenly can change their patrol route
Fatigue of AIs depending on their fatness.
Face expressions (really nicely implemented)
Environment-aware remarks that AIs make, they "know" many things they see.
Ally-neutral-enemy system (not just ally-enemy like in T1/2).
Arrow combos.
Flexible bodies that don't pierce walls (even if they take funny positions sometimes, it's pleasure to see how gorgeously they roll down the stairs for instance :) )
Physics.
Body awareness system if the POV didn't lurch so much and the body turned instantly when you start to turn left and right.
It's just what I almost instantly remembered. If it all already was in T1/2, and in T3 they degraded it to the T1/2 level, than T1/2 die-hard fans here would whine about how stupid and simplified they made it in T3.
ZylonBane on 5/1/2006 at 17:15
Quote Posted by 242
If it all already was in T1/2, and in T3 they degraded it to the T1/2 level, than T1/2 die-hard fans here would whine about how stupid and simplified they made it in T3.
Prove it.
GlasWolf on 5/1/2006 at 19:06
I think the problem T3 has when facing up against T1 and T2 is that for all the improvements made, anti-T3 folk will always have a few trump cards they can play - rope arrows, water and outdoor areas. Pretty much all of the questionable design decisions (loot glint, texture quality etc.) can be changed and FMs have proved that loading zones basically aren't necessary for PCs, but I doubt we'll ever see release-quality rope arrows or swimming implemented in Flesh.
Macsen on 5/1/2006 at 19:49
Quote Posted by 242
Fatigue of AIs depending on their fatness.
It's plenty possible to do this in T2 as well. You just go to AI Attributes and change sloth to 'above average'.
ZylonBane on 5/1/2006 at 20:04
Yeah, it's interesting how many "new" things TDS did that are possible in the classic Thief games too. So a lot of the so-called improvements in TDS are really just different design decisions. And frankly, I think LGS made better decisions.
In deciding how the Thief world works, LGS did a superb job of balancing the demands of gameplay against creating an immersive, reasonably believable world. Ion Storm, unfortunately, decided to leave heavily toward gameplay in its design decisions, like the aforementioned blindness-curing blackjack, which doesn't make a damn bit of sense within the game fiction.
The end result was a product that feels like "just a game".
sparhawk on 5/1/2006 at 20:51
Quote Posted by 242
What we are talking about - the blackjacking system.
You obviousy didn't play TDS enough if compared with T1/2/FMs to remember even the most prominent advantages.
On the other hand, "the most prominent improvements" may not have been THAT prominent enough to stick in my mind. Considering that a lot of Thief content is conjured up just by thinking at the term "Thief" but no such effect is happening when I think about TDS means one thing to me. It was not good enough to even be remembered because Thief stuck in my mind while TDS never did. I forgot the content of it almost as soon as I finished it, which happens with average or bad games, but not with first class games like Thief. This is nothing particular with TDS, though, it also happens with other games that are second grade (or less).
Quote:
Also (all as things *by itself*, not mentioning exclusively graphics features like bumpmapping etc.):
I don't take such "improvements" into account, because they are state of the art technical advancement, and are totally unrelated to gameplay. A crappy game using Havoc will not become better just because it was using Havon as it's physics engine, which is not to blame Havoc abivously. Same for buzzwords like Bumpmapping, Dynamic Shadows/Lights, Normal Mapping, EAX Sound, etc.. I take it for granted that more modern games will also have more advanaced graphics and sounds. Otherwise they will not sell.
Yes. That was a good intention. Unfortunately it was so badly executed that it got boring after a few tries because it was SO easy. Even though original Thief had only timed lockpicking, at least it managed to keep me on my toes because I always had to fear that an AI could come around the corner. Since the lockpicking in TDS became so easy, the risk was very low.
Quote:
The oil flask (VERY funny thing) and ability of AIs to slip and kill themselves.
Yes. That's funny for a few times, but how long does it stay funny? It doesn't really add to the gameplay IMO. A joke is used up once you heard it. Maybe it works a second time.
Quote:
AIs who suddenly can change their patrol route
Wow! Never noticed that.
Quote:
Fatigue of AIs depending on their fatness.
THAT is supposed to be a gampleay improvement? It made the game so much more easy because you could run around in circles to get rid of an AI easily.
Quote:
Face expressions (really nicely implemented)
Never really noticed them.
Quote:
Environment-aware remarks that AIs make, they "know" many things they see.
That may indeed have been an improvement.
Quote:
Ally-neutral-enemy system (not just ally-enemy like in T1/2).
Now THAT was a real nice thing. It had no consequence on gameplay, in fact it had no consequence at all, ebcause it didn't really matter, wether you were enemy/neutral or friend, so it was actually pretty pointless. If you ignored it entirely you wouldn't have noticed any difference. Of course since you didn't knew this from the start, you were always wondering when it took effect.
What exactly do you mean?
Quote:
Flexible bodies that don't pierce walls (even if they take funny positions sometimes, it's pleasure to see how gorgeously they roll down the stairs for instance :) )
Yeah! Very flexible bodies. If I wanted to see a freak show I would have played Simpsons. Actually if I want to play a serious game, then I expect the game to handle such thing seriously as well.
Which also didn't really have any consequence on gameplay, and also was badly executed, because the mass of many objects were wrong.
Quote:
Body awareness system if the POV didn't lurch so much and the body turned instantly when you start to turn left and right.
A pretty useless feature IMO.
Quote:
It's just what I almost instantly remembered.
You forgot to mention the first class animations of the AI. I never saw a game with SUCH wooden AI walking around. :)
Quote:
If it all already was in T1/2, and in T3 they degraded it to the T1/2 level, than T1/2 die-hard fans here would whine about how stupid and simplified they made it in T3.
I doubt that the fans would have whinned if they had done a real Thief game. As it is it was just a console attempt at a Thief game.
Quote Posted by GlasWolf
I think the problem T3 has when facing up against T1 and T2 is that for all the improvements made, anti-T3 folk will always have a few trump cards they can play - rope arrows, water and outdoor areas.
Actually I didn't even need to mention rope arrows and water, and still don't like TDS.
Necrovox on 6/1/2006 at 05:18
At first I couldn't decide whether or not I liked TDS. Well. I hate it. 90% of the levels are boring. Short, boring, bad voice acting (Striksies! ifs yous bes poisons thens yours mothers wills dies!) , annoying cartoonish graphics, and every other problem mentioned in this thread.
I still haven't beaten the game, and I don't know if I ever will. I can't play more than half a level before I'm falling asleep.
In short, ISA sucks and I can't help but laugh at them for going under. Nah nah!
The only thing I can compliment are the conversations between dumb and smart guard. They always have owned, and they still own.
MAYBE SOME OF THEM DIE FIRST AND NEVER ASK FOR IT BACK!
Pardon the hostility. I'm drunk.
