Just Curious. . .(Spoilers, so watch it - or don't)

Elentari on 30/5/2006 at 07:19

I have not seen any threads on this yet - and a search reveals all the wrong stuff, soooo. . .

I was thinking, in TG and T2 we know that Garrett goes down to the Lost City - Karath Din, I think its called? - which is below the City itself. At least that is how I understood it. The ancient city was destroyed/lost/sank somehow (never did catch on to exactly what happened), and time passed, it was covered over, and then the current City was built on top of it. Perhaps even part of the ruins were incorporated? Though, of course thats just hypothesis.

Anyway, in TDS, we are taken once again under the city. But this time to the halls of the Kurshok, and their sunken citadel and city . . .or at least their citadel.

My question is this. . .if the Kurshok were shoved down there 'time out of mind', and Karath Din was 'ancient', how on earth could they both fit under a single city? I mean, I know the City itself has grown fairly large, but most cities are. . .how would it be possible to 'lose' two cities under the same spot and yet not have them cross over each other? For we never saw any mention of the Kurshok in the Lost City. Just lots of burricks. (And yes, I am aware the Kurshok were not thought of then. . .shh!)

Are there any thoughts to this? I suppose neither the Lost City, nor the Kurshok places would have to be DIRECTLY under the City. . .but it seems that they would have to be fairly close together still, to be entered from inside the city at all. Meaning they are still somewhat overlapping.

I could complain about the Pagan tunnels as well, but after some consideration, I realized they were not particularily deep. More sewer level, then up in an abandoned part of the city again, so thats not conflict there, really. The lost city seemed to be a LONG ways under. . .from my impressions. Several hundred feet or more.

Clyp on 30/5/2006 at 11:18

I'm thinking the Citadel would be somewhere under water. You do enter it through the sewers in the docks, and it is called "sunken".

Komag on 30/5/2006 at 17:34

Maybe that's it, and why they look like fish people, because once upon a time they lived under water, extremely anciently, before city sunk down into the earth below the bottom of the water, and eventually the water itself dried up and Karath Din was built there, and was eventually sunk underground as well. Perhaps it's just a very geologically unstable but economically/militarily strategic location.

jermi on 30/5/2006 at 17:36

Well, the Citadel could be anywhere, it's so small. You could probably fit more than five Citadels inside one Soulforge.

What I want to know is how many more cave systems there are down there, filled with loot, and creatures endlessly walking along their static patrol routes?

GlasWolf on 30/5/2006 at 17:47

Quote Posted by jermi

What I want to know is how many more cave systems there are down there, filled with loot, and creatures endlessly walking along their static patrol routes?

Is that a cue for another "will there be a Thief 4" thread? ;)

Komag on 30/5/2006 at 20:59

Quote Posted by jermi

Well, the Citadel could be anywhere, it's so small. You could probably fit more than five Citadels inside one Soulforge.

But that's not the point - The Kurshok kingdom is actually huge, it's just represented small in the game. Sort of like the city itself.

T-Smith on 30/5/2006 at 21:16

Quote Posted by Komag

But that's not the point - The Kurshok kingdom is actually huge, it's just represented small in the game. Sort of like the city itself.

Quite right. The Kurshok Kingdom was apparently quite large, with giant towers and forts, and even things like boats. When The Trickster used his powers to sink the city, much of it was lost, and over the many years more and more of the Citadel started to crumble or become blocked off from the rest via cave ins and such.

Elentari on 30/5/2006 at 23:03

Quote:

I'm thinking the Citadel would be somewhere under water. You do enter it through the sewers in the docks, and it is called "sunken".

Thats a good point. I did not think of that. I suppose the entire place could be under the harbour. . .if the citadel was punished by the trickster so long ago. . .there is a good posibility the harbour was not a harbour until after the place sank. . .creating the harbour of the present day. Meaning the Lost city could easily still be under the city, possibly built on the city's location after the Kurshok were sent underwater. Not necessarily *long* after, either. Just long enough for the land to settle down. "Hey those fish people are gone. Lets settle on that perfect land!" lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Komag
But that's not the point - The Kurshok kingdom is actually huge, it's just represented small in the game. Sort of like the city itself.

Thats quite true. The place logically, cannot be as small as we saw in game. The entire race would not fit in there and. . .as few creatures as we killed/knocked out etc. . .they wouldn't have survived as a race. Specially after Garrett went through there. :) And yeah, I would think much of the original citadel area was collapsed and such. . .On the other hand, if its been so long, who's to say they have not carved out other tunnels and created an entire kingdom down there for themselves, beyond the original sunken city? It does make sense that there's more than we see. . .Same with the Lost City, (although, with the lost city. . .finding parchments and such that survived the disaster and lasted all that time, then didn't fall apart when Garrett touched them? None of the furniture survived. . .how did the paper? lol But, shhh, we're nto supposed to notice that.) I am guessing there was more to the bit of City we see. Granted most of it would be buried, ruins, etc, but I can still see more of it available than what we saw.

Then again, game worlds always tend to be a bit small, as opposed to what it would *really* be, if it was real life.

Meisterdieb on 30/5/2006 at 23:17

Do we get any info in TDS that the Kurshok actually built their city themselves?
Couldn't it be that they annexed part of the ruins and lived there.
Were they punished by the Trickster and cast down with their city (e.g. buildings and stuff) or only they as a people cast down?

The Citadel seems to be close to the water, and maybe even partially submerged...
In TMA we get to the Lost City by submarine, so we can assume that it can be reach by water too.

From my feelings in TDP, Karath Din (?) appeared really old, much older to me than the Citadel- although that also had to happen a long time ago (since noone -except Keepers- know of Predecessors/KD or the Kurshok/Citadel.

I think the Kurshok didn't actually build their Citadel, they only rebuild it or fitted it to their style of living. They just don't make that tool-efficient appearance to me.
And also- if they should have built the Citadel et-al themselves-why would they have worshipped the Trickster when such behaviour (tools, building, stonemasonry etc) fits more with the Builder and his codex (at least some parts that aren't too Hammeritish)
Well, it would explain why they ran afoul of the Trickster.... ;-)

T-Smith on 30/5/2006 at 23:53

Quote Posted by Meisterdieb

It's confirmed in the game that the Kurshok built their city themselves, perhaps with a little help from The Trickster, since they were his favourite race. When The Trickster eventually cast the Kurshok down (due to the whole King Gruliac/Crown incident) he actually used his powers to sink the entire civilization to the ground.

I don't see a problem with there having been two ancient races that lived in the area that is now known as The City. The part of the Kurshok Citadel we see might be the only part that's actually within The City's boundries. It's possible the rest of the city was on the outskirts of the city, or was located where the ocean now lies.