New Horizon on 6/5/2008 at 05:17
The concept of reloading if something minor goes wrong is alien to me. The whole point of the game is to get out of scrapes you create for yourself, and then learn not to do it again. The only time I ever reloaded was if I died. I can't imagine reloading if I alerted a bunch of guards because I did something stupid, I would just try to deal with it and get away. That's what makes the original games so fun. Sometimes those guards will hand you your ass!
eagle17 on 6/5/2008 at 07:40
Well, TDS was the first game from Thief series I got to play, and at that time I must say I loved it. It was that kind of stealth game I was looking for back then. So I had kind of undistorted point of view when judging the game. BUT, then I managed to find and buy Thief Anthology, played TDP and TMA. And I must agree with others that TDS is nowhere near to first two games - it is only pathetic shadow of what Thief used to be. I guess now my point of view is distorted and I'm damn glad it is ;)
Goldmoon Dawn on 6/5/2008 at 14:35
Welcome to the club eagle17. :ebil:
phide on 6/5/2008 at 15:42
Quote Posted by eagle17
[TDS] is only pathetic shadow of what Thief used to be.
I'd say that's the best anyone's ever put it. "Pathetic shadow".
I don't call TDS a bad 'game', but I do call it a bad 'Thief game'. The elements of a good Thief game were there, just not presented the right way or buried under a bed of technical issues.
KMiTA on 6/5/2008 at 16:05
Hey, did anyone else first play thief in the order of TMA-TDP-TDS? I thought that this was actually an awesome way to play the series.
I liked DS. It's still Garrett to me. Maybe the world is different, new and has a different atmosphere of the early thief games (which, lets be honest, we can't underestimate the nastalgia-induced bias that the the originals create when we decry DS for lack of rope arrows, etc). But I kinda get the feeling that Garrett himself is being forced to work his trade in a city that has changed alot from the way it used to be in his glory days...
Alot of the things that contribute to a great atmosphere (music, lighting, story, voice acting, suspense) were done very well in DS, in my opinion. If you were to tell me ahead of time that the primary legitimate complaints of DS would be 3rd person, no ropes or swimming, and loading zones I wouldn't be that upset.
If it has pagans, haunts, hammerites, the City, a good story, a plethora of purloinables and the greatest master thief in the world to steal them with then I'm there.:D
Fian on 6/5/2008 at 17:16
Quote Posted by New Horizon
The concept of reloading if something minor goes wrong is alien to me. The whole point of the game is to get out of scrapes you create for yourself, and then learn not to do it again. The only time I ever reloaded was if I died. I can't imagine reloading if I alerted a bunch of guards because I did something stupid, I would just try to deal with it and get away. That's what makes the original games so fun. Sometimes those guards will hand you your ass!
Yes, I agree that the game is more fun when you don't reload every single time something minor goes wrong. The problem with the first 2 games is that when something goes wrong, it isn't minor. You get chased halfway accross the building past 20 guards, and when you finally lose them, you get to look forward to spending the next 30+ minutes working your way past those 20 guards again. So what do you do? Either, reload or kill the 20 guards so they can't harass you again. Neither is a great option in a Thief game. I found that in Thief 3 I would tend to use stealth all the time, but in the earlier Thief games, I got tired sneaking past the guards, so I would tend to kill frequently.
New Horizon on 6/5/2008 at 17:33
Quote Posted by Fian
Yes, I agree that the game is more fun when you don't reload every single time something minor goes wrong. The problem with the first 2 games is that when something goes wrong, it isn't minor. You get chased halfway accross the building past 20 guards, and when you finally lose them, you get to look forward to spending the next 30+ minutes working your way past those 20 guards again. So what do you do? Either, reload or kill the 20 guards so they can't harass you again. Neither is a great option in a Thief game. I found that in Thief 3 I would tend to use stealth all the time, but in the earlier Thief games, I got tired sneaking past the guards, so I would tend to kill frequently.
lol Well, I don't know what you're problem is with getting the guards all riled up like that. Once I got the hang of the game, I never had a problem that serious. I mean, if you're upsetting the guards you have to be doing something wrong! ha The idea of Thief is to not get caught, so if you alert that many guards...be prepared to suffer the consequences. That's the major difference between TDS and the earlier games. TDS plays like it wants to get the player through the map as quickly as possible so they don't get bored or feel like they're being punished if they do something wrong. The originals made you work pretty hard at times...and it's not even that hard once you get the hang of the AI. Hopefully our AI in The Dark Mod will add a little extra challenge.
Goldmoon Dawn on 6/5/2008 at 18:33
Quote Posted by New Horizon
TDS plays like it wants to get the player through the map as quickly as possible so they don't get bored
Amen.
In Dark Project, there were so many chances to head off into a different direction and discover some new path. Often, you would feel unsuspectingly triumphant over these discoveries, only to realise that the team *meant* it to be that way. *sigh* These subtle touches are what made Dark Project such an elite accomplishment. Rope arrows, water, all this other stuff only enhanced the design philosophy that these Missions were meant to be explored thoroughly. I'll compare it to a David Gilmour solo. He was able to convey so much with so few notes, it allowed the listener to disappear in the space between the notes. I'm coming to realise that these newer fans really don't *want* the original exploratory nature of the Project. However it is not too late. :) Thinking of converting to Dark Project? Well, we are always accepting applications for new victims, willing to risk life and limb. Thou needst only apply within...
Within the game that is. I'll be waiting for you at the Cloister. :ebil:
KMiTA on 6/5/2008 at 19:00
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Amen.
In Dark Project, there were so many chances to head off into a different direction and discover some new path. Often, you would feel unsuspectingly triumphant over these discoveries, only to realise that the team *meant* it to be that way. *sigh* These subtle touches are what made Dark Project such an elite accomplishment. Rope arrows, water, all this other stuff only enhanced the design philosophy that these Missions were meant to be explored thoroughly. I'll compare it to a David Gilmour solo. He was able to convey so much with so few notes, it allowed the listener to disappear in the space between the notes. I'm coming to realise that these newer fans really don't *want* the original exploratory nature of the Project. However it is not too late. :) Thinking of converting to Dark Project? Well, we are always accepting applications for new victims, willing to risk life and limb. Thou needst only apply within...
Within the game that is. I'll be waiting for you at the Cloister. :ebil:
What?! All of my solutions to the DP missions were totally original and sneaky.*
Also, in response to some earlier posts, I can think of many times when I have had to pull off an awesome escape in the older games. Nothing like scrambling up a rope arow at the last minute to get out of the way of a patrolling haunt...still gives me goosebumps.
*
See Delusional
Fian on 6/5/2008 at 20:02
Quote Posted by New Horizon
lol Well, I don't know what you're problem is with getting the guards all riled up like that. Once I got the hang of the game, I never had a problem that serious. I mean, if you're upsetting the guards you have to be doing something wrong! ha The idea of Thief is to not get caught, so if you alert that many guards...be prepared to suffer the consequences. That's the major difference between TDS and the earlier games. TDS plays like it wants to get the player through the map as quickly as possible so they don't get bored or feel like they're being punished if they do something wrong. The originals made you work pretty hard at times...and it's not even that hard once you get the hang of the AI. Hopefully our AI in The Dark Mod will add a little extra challenge.
It really isn't that hard on some missions (one of the mansion missions come to mind). If you aren't killing every guard that you see, then there are guards all over the place. It just takes one guard to see you to force you to run. Then, since it takes a lot more than running around to a shadow around the corner, you run past the guard that you just snuck by, who of course sees you and gives chase. By the time you find some spot where they can't follow you, you've run by a fair number of guards that are now alert and searching for you. At this point, I am going to hit reload. I don't want to spend the next 30 minutes sneaking from guard to guard just to try and get back to this one problematic guard again. Or more likely, to avoid the problem in the future, I just start to do some guard stacking so I don't have to worry about being caught.
One thing about large levels. I actually prefer smaller mission sizes. Remember the zombie mission in TDP where there are hundreds of zombies? How many actually sneak their way through the level? How many just run around and grab what they need, and then outrun the slow zombies? In a small mission I will sneak around. In a large mission, I get tired of sneaking, and just go back to guard stacking.
