Just had something occur to me. (Cathedral spoilerish)

vforvegard on 24/10/2007 at 12:02

i like swimming in thief 1 and 2.
DS water was terrible. Fun to drown guards in, though. and gamall of course...

demagogue on 24/10/2007 at 13:36

Sewers & water tunnels go hand in hand with roof-tops. The whole idea was that G moves through peripheral channels. And Garrett is in good company: Lara Croft does it in TR2; Indiana Jones does it in Last Crusade; Tim Robbins does it in Shawshank Redemption. And swimming is good fun ... breaks up the monotony of just walking around for 95% of the gameplay.

As for the OP question ... nice to see a place where the City map project becomes relevant. One look at it and it becomes apparent right away that the Old Quarter is literally about a 1/4 slice of the whole City, whereas the walled section is just one neighborhood inside of it of a few streets and the Cathedral.

*Zaccheus* on 24/10/2007 at 17:07

Quote Posted by Jashin

Those are terrible reasons!

The opposite can be more true - "water" is boring, "water" sounds lame, and the lack of swimming in shit-filled runoff adds realism to the game. :eww:

Something isn't true just because it can be said.
Something isn't false just because the opposite can be said.

I agree with KOMAG when he says water is fun, water sounds cool and water adds to the atmosphere of a mission.

For example, underwater you can freely move in three dimensions.

Jashin on 25/10/2007 at 12:23

Quote Posted by demagogue

Sewers & water tunnels go hand in hand with roof-tops. The whole idea was that G moves through peripheral channels. And Garrett is in good company: Lara Croft does it; Indiana Jones does it. And swimming is good fun ... breaks up the monotony of just walking around for 95% of the gameplay.

Well, evidently. You gotta get into a place of high security somehow, if not ceiling then basement entry. The point is you don't go swimming in that stuff. For example, if there's a drain running through the city carrying god-knows-what out of the place, why jump in it? The logic here is the same as any videogame cliches.

And you can't really brand walking as monotonous, especially in Thief. It's part of the gameplay. Whereas there's not much gameplay in water.

*Zaccheus* on 25/10/2007 at 15:22

In the bafford mission the entry point was a well, i.e. drinking water. Jumping down that hole and being carried along with the current (and not missing the underwater cave) all added to the fun of the mission.

Peanuckle on 25/10/2007 at 16:29

People seem to complain most because there's not much to do while in the water, it's just there to dance around in. So I was thinking, is it possible to make a water-based enemy like sharks or other such animals?

jtr7 on 25/10/2007 at 19:08

It's been tried and done to an extent. The FM makers and players will have to say how well it was pulled off. Lotsa different animals have been attempted. Flying creatures, quadrupeds (dogs and horses), and marine creatures.

In Ambush! the water allows another stealthy approach to Garrett's apartment like that found in many stories. The City has The River and canals. You don't have to swim in the water if you wish, it's realistic to have it there. There are uses of water that are not realistic, but I think it's necessary to create a sense that you are in a habitable world.

Jashin on 26/10/2007 at 05:03

Quote Posted by *Zaccheus*

Is that the first mission of TDP? My memory is hazy. But that seems to add cinematic value to the mission, and not really gameplay. It's not something you can use more than once or it becomes trite.

jtbalogh on 26/10/2007 at 06:31

I agree to a point that sewage alone is not preferrable, because hard to stealth later when an enemy nearby inquires, "Heh Benny, did you find out where that god aweful smell is coming from?"

However in the layout of the game, I'ld use water more than once as a thief, if the guards still did not figure out how I broke in. Guards/mobs can spot me in water if not careful, so it requires some gameplay like walking does. You can throw flash bombs and objects to distract, though not use the arrow or blackjack. If Garrett wanted a million dollar diamond, perhaps sewage would not completely stop him, though alternatives would most likely be considered first if possible.

A lot of movies show examples of how water or sewage tunnels are a point of entry into facilities, for action, horror, escape, etc. Three I recently saw were The Rock, Entrapment, Doom and Alien Resurrection.

*Zaccheus* on 26/10/2007 at 09:28

Quote Posted by Jashin

Is that the first mission of TDP? My memory is hazy. But that seems to add cinematic value to the mission, and not really gameplay. It's not something you can use more than once or it becomes trite.

It is an example of water enhancing the mission. Another example is The Maw at the end of TDP. There are many others.