Karras and Garrett - TTLG Forums

Mighty Hammer on 9/7/2007 at 16:07

He got the eye from the hammers, that's clear. But, as evidences say, that particular Hammerite(priest) that created it must have been Karras. It looks like he didin't give the eye to him directly, but he surely build it. At the end of TDP Karras was already very pissed with the Hammers failing to stop the trickster's invasion on the city, so he probably already had plans to separate from them. Helping a potentially powerfull ally by helping him regain his full eyesight was a logical step in this situation. The only unclear thing is that Garrett never mentioned that he knew Karras made his eye, and he didn't say anything when Karras spoke about it. So this is a bit shadowy here.
Karras surely knew that Garrett could also be a dreadful enemy, so, as Garrett didn't try to become his ally, Karras wanted him dead as he knew that could only mean he would never team up with him.
And as far as I know, TMA is placed roughly 2 years after TDP, but I can't quite remember where I read that...

Jah on 9/7/2007 at 16:32

Quote Posted by R Soul

Even if Karras had left Garrett alone, it would still have been in Garrett's interests to stop him because otherwise everyone would be dead.

True, but Garrett would have never found out about his plan had Karras not drawn him into it by trying to assassinate him. Otherwise I see no reason why Garrett would have started poking into the mechanists' affairs.

The event that really kicks off the main plot in TMA is the Framed mission, where someone (a pagan agent, apparently) commissions him to break into Shoalsgate and frame Lt. Hagen. Maybe Karras somehow found out about this and concluded that Garrett is in league with the pagans (which he really wasn't, at that point), and that's why he considered Garrett to be a risk that needs to be eliminated. That's the most logical explanation I can think of why Karras would want Garrett dead.

As for the eye, I suppose it might make sense that Karras made it before splitting off from the Hammers, but there is no indication that Garrett knew the eye came from him, so in that sense, his motive of trying to win Garrett over still seems rather odd.

Yandros on 9/7/2007 at 17:19

Transcript of kar1602A.wav:

Quote Posted by "Karras"

I know thou art not a believer, Garrett. That thou art well aware that half of all thou seeest is through Mechanist machinery - thy metal eye... I gave the eye to thee in the hopes that thou woudst be an ally, but 'twas not to be. You have eluded me in the past, Garrett - but no one, not even thee, will escape this night.

I can only guess that LGS put this in as a twist, and the implication is that Karras was the Hammer who made him the eye just after the events of T1. As for timeframe, I've always assumed that probably a year or two, maybe more, passed between T1 and T2, to give the Mechs time to splinter off and become the powerful group that they are in T2.

BrokenArts on 9/7/2007 at 17:26

Quote Posted by Yandros

Transcript of kar1602A.wav:

I can only guess that LGS put this in as a twist, and the implication is that Karras was the Hammer who made him the eye just after the events of T1. As for timeframe, I've always assumed that probably a year or two, maybe more, passed between T1 and T2, to give the Mechs time to splinter off and become the powerful group that they are in T2.

The events that lead up to T2, and all that goes with it. Sounds about right. I can dig that.

Emerald Wolf on 9/7/2007 at 18:07

Not sure how relevant this is but in the Thief Gold Snd.crf there's an unused conversation between two thieves (TH106800.wav-TH106812.wav & TH206801.wav- TH206811.wav) talking about Bafford handing over a thief to Karras:

Quote:

...Some Hammerite named Karras offered Bafford something in exchange for him...

Looks like he was experimenting on people before he left the order.

jtr7 on 9/7/2007 at 18:15

Karras didn't necessarily build the eye all by himself, but was heavily involved with it and had intentions to give it to Garrett. Karras gave gifts to lots of people to get them on his side. He had some people almost begging for his wondrous gifts. Garrett wasn't swayed. Garrett may not have even expressed gratitude when the gift was delivered (however that happened). The Hammers may have given Garrett things--including a pardon for his crimes--after he defeated the Trickster. Garrett's empty eye-socket was something Karras knew how to fill.

And don't forget: Karras was a Hammer first. Many of the Mechanists were.

R Soul on 9/7/2007 at 18:45

Quote Posted by Jah

As a thief Garrett would have come across the Mechanist technology that had been given to the nobility - the cameras, the robots and the servants. I think Karras would have been concerned that Garrett would have tried to find out about this new technology in order to find weaknesses that could be exploited, and would have stumbled across the his big plan. Karras might have thought that it was only a matter of time before Garrett found out, so it was best to have him killed before then.

Quote:

The event that really kicks off the main plot in TMA is the Framed mission, where someone (a pagan agent, apparently) commissions him to break into Shoalsgate and frame Lt. Hagen.

I got the impression that Sammy was working with the City Watch from the start. He did provide Garrett with a good map of the place and he had an awful lot of money on him. I think they knew Garrett would be able to sneak through Shoalsgate so rather than trying to catch him inside, they waited till he was 'off duty' and off guard.

Jah on 9/7/2007 at 19:11

Quote Posted by R Soul

But if Sammy was working for the City Watch, what possible motive would they have for hiring Garrett to break into Shoalsgate and frame Lt. Hagen? I got the impression that Sammy was basically a middleman who hooked up Garrett with the pagans, who are the only ones I can think of with a motive to get Hagen (Truart's right-hand man) out of the way. After receiving his payment, Sammy had no reason to stay loyal to Garrett, so he gave his name to the City Watch.

My theory is that it was the pagans who hired Garrett for the Shoalsgate job. When Karras heard about what happened in Shoalsgate, he probably smelled a rat: The evidence against Hagen (the strongbox in his office and his handkerchief in the evidence locker) was a bit TOO obvious and convenient, so he suspected that Hagen was framed. If Karras was the one who made the mechanical eye, he would have been well familiar with Garrett and his talents, and concluded that only Garrett would have been bold and skillful enough to break into a police station. This made him believe that Garrett is allied with the pagans, so he decided that Garrett must be dealt with and told Truart to have the City Watch take care of him.

Jah on 9/7/2007 at 19:40

Quote Posted by Yandros

As for timeframe, I've always assumed that probably a year or two, maybe more, passed between T1 and T2, to give the Mechs time to splinter off and become the powerful group that they are in T2.

What about T2-T3 - how much time was supposed to have passed between them? The fact that the Brethren and Betrayer and the prophecies related to them are already mentioned in T2 gives the impression that the jump from T2 to T3 would not have been very long, but what puzzles me is that by T3, the mechanists have disappeared completely. The failure and death of Karras and the destruction of Soulforge would have probably been enough to disillusion most mechanists and cause them to either "return to the fold" and rejoin the Hammers, or give up religious life altogether, but considering how powerful they were, it seems a bit unconvincing that they would have entirely ceased to exist in a few months or so. Some of the journals found in Soulforge show that there were already some within the Mechanist Order who were concerned about Karras and had begun to question his actions, so I would have thought that at least a small group of the most devoted mechanists would have kept the Order alive in some form, if only as some kind of illegal underground cult. But the only references to them in T3 are some passing mentions in Keeper/Hammer documents, and a few old gramophones here and there, which clearly gives the impression that the mechanists are nothing more than past history.

Lord Dalar on 9/7/2007 at 20:02

In the Thief the Dark Project Cutscene 14 (Final video before credits) one sees for the first time Garret's mechanical Eye.

I always thought that the hammers did the eye for him after escape and strange bedfellows to help him defeating the Trickster.

As for Karrass' words about him being the creator of the eye, well think of it in a different way, Karrass in his visionary degeneration of state of mind comes to see himself such as a heir of the builder himself, a godlike, a chosen one, a real son of the builder, the only one who understands the machine and the builder's will, maybe sometimes he speaks of himself as for the builder (i remember reading a diary in soulforge where a Mechanist said something that like), so maybe he says he made the eye only because everything that is crafted is done by the builder's wish and is his own creation by right; and Having garret on his side meant having him as a half between the machine and the human, maybe karrass wanted to create something like cyborgs and this was his first step, remember he created the servants...

I think of him as a doctor that has become mad and who sees his work becoming a way to perfection, like shodan in System Shock series, a machine works better if properly built and watched over, it is...more efficent!

Karras never had the chance to fullfill what else he could have been up to with garret, so now garret is a half creation without him mastering it, without control, and what is not controlled by the builder (Read also as: Karras) has to be hunt down and strucked in pieces...

That's a part of what I've reconstructed of the Thief Series plot in my mind, it' s a version of many, it's just speculation, looking glass just gave us the raw tools to get into a mystical and shivering dark imaginative fiction world, I will never stop thanking those who created such evocative images, sounds and experiences

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