Beleg Cúthalion on 9/7/2007 at 20:32
I guess we have to deal with the problem that LG put together the story after creating the missions. But besides that...
Mosley (who's story is quite interesting, too) mentions AFAIK that 1. the Mechanists are the real initiators behind the City Watch's raids and that 2. The City Watch is hauting a certain creature called Garrett. But did this "happen" at the same time? It is clear that the CW wants Garrett and so might appreciate a possibility to catch him in the act (or rather in a pub). The Mechanists just have to push their "eliminate all riff-raff" campaign, so Garrett would automatically be included. At this point there is no need for a special request from the Mechanists concerning Garrett. But after this raid, Garrett becomes important and Truart's reports might reach Karras who remembers that skilled guy with the Trickster affair....and then he could have been declared dangerous. Only if there are is nothing in the canon that contradicts me.
The Pagans, as I think, were confronted with this new enemy and had the luck of Ltd. Mosles surprisingly changing sides and giving them interna from the CW...including the big shots like Hagan, who were started to be demonitised.
If you can follow my bumpy English...:erm:
Solabusca on 9/7/2007 at 20:33
Here are a few things to add to the mix:
1) It's been quite a while since the end of TMA. Garrett has already opened up somewhat to the thought of gaining access to the Prophecies at the end of TMA, and has been given the runaround, at the very least for several months, by the Keepers. Hence his response to Artemus in the first cut-scene.
2) I'm fairly sure it became 'common knowledge' that the Mechanist Order (or it's leadership) were plotting something evil after the devastation of Soulforge and the Decimation of the Order. I'm sure that there are smatterings of Mechanist cult activity, but the Hammerites had all the ammunition they needed when Karras' activities became known - "the Heretic Karras and his wicked crafts" makes for great press.
All those fancy toys he gave out to the nobles would have been dismantled/destroyed or taken underground right quick. No-one would want to be stigmatized because of their association with a murder/suicide cult, after all; and the Hammerites would have been their usual zealous selves when it came to supressing Mechanist heresy after the Mechanists fell from grace.
3) From the journal entry we see in the Docks district (referring to a certain vessel from TMA), we can see that enough time has passed for this particular story to become a tall tale - "Like that time I saw the metal whale"...
.j.
Jah on 9/7/2007 at 21:33
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Mosley (who's story is quite interesting, too) mentions AFAIK that 1. the Mechanists are the real initiators behind the City Watch's raids and that 2. The City Watch is hauting a certain creature called Garrett. But did this "happen" at the same time? It is clear that the CW wants Garrett and so might appreciate a possibility to catch him in the act (or rather in a pub). The Mechanists just have to push their "eliminate all riff-raff" campaign, so Garrett would automatically be included. At this point there is no need for a special request from the Mechanists concerning Garrett.
Yes, that is possible... But it still seems to me that if Garrett is just a part of the riff-raff the City Watch wants to eliminate, they're spending a surprising amount of resources to get him - I believe one of the watchmen posted outside Garrett's home makes a comment about that to his captain, and it's also made clear at the beginning of the Ambush mission that the Watch wants Garrett dead, not alive. I'm sure Garrett is a famous thief, but I still wonder would Truart or the City Watch consider him to be important enough to send half of their forces to patrol the City to find and exterminate him.
Jah on 9/7/2007 at 21:56
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Here are a few things to add to the mix:
2) I'm fairly sure it became 'common knowledge' that the Mechanist Order (or it's leadership) were plotting something evil after the devastation of Soulforge and the Decimation of the Order. I'm sure that there are smatterings of Mechanist cult activity, but the Hammerites had all the ammunition they needed when Karras' activities became known - "the Heretic Karras and his wicked crafts" makes for great press.
I'm not so sure it would have become common knowledge. After all, the only ones who were fully aware of Karras' plan were Garrett and Viktoria - possibly the Keepers; Viktoria died, and I doubt Garrett or the Keepers would have trumpeted it all over the City, as it just wouldn't seem characteristic for either of them. The other mechanists probably weren't aware of the full extent of the plan, at least; I doubt they would have all been ready to get themselves killed. Even if they had an idea of what Karras' plan was about, I don't think they realized he was planning to kill his own followers as well. In any case, the mechanists certainly would have tried to keep everything secret.
From the nobles' point of view, Karras gifted them with mechanical servants, who then suddenly all left and converged at Soulforge, after which some strange gas destroyed them as well as Karras. I don't think the nobles or common folk would have realized the connection between the gas and the servants, let alone what Karras had planned to do with them.
I do agree that the Hammers would have certainly used the opportunity to attack the mechanists; even if they didn't know what Karras had planned, they would have said that he suffered that fate because he had incurred the wrath of the Builder with his heretic teachings, and with the mechanists in disarray, they would have probably had an easy time eroding their support and chasing down those most closely associated with Karras. But I'm still under the impression that in both T1 and T2, most of the City residents remained mostly oblivious to the great danger they were in, and apart from the Keepers, hardly anyone was aware that Garrett had saved them.
Beleg Cúthalion on 9/7/2007 at 22:16
Quote Posted by Jah
But it still seems to me that if Garrett is just a part of the riff-raff the City Watch wants to eliminate, they're spending a surprising amount of resources to get him [...] I still wonder would Truart or the City Watch consider him to be important enough to send half of their forces to patrol the City to find and exterminate him.
Well, it appears that Sammy (he was the rat, wasn't he?) told quite a lot...including maybe the blackmailing stuff. There should be enough reason to send some more men (especially after his first escape), but primarily I wanted to point out that we don't need a mechanistical force for that...at this point of the story.
Marecki on 9/7/2007 at 22:39
My guess is that the Mechanists were an extremely pyramid-like order, with Karras as The Great Spiritual Leader, and therefore fell rapidly when their leader passed away. For one thing, consider how many Mechanist prayers Garrett could hear referred specifically and directly to Karras.
Solabusca on 9/7/2007 at 22:47
Quote Posted by Jah
I'm not so sure it would have become common knowledge. After all, the only ones who were fully aware of Karras' plan were Garrett and Viktoria - possibly the Keepers; Viktoria died, and I doubt Garrett or the Keepers would have trumpeted it all over the City, as it just wouldn't seem characteristic for either of them. The other mechanists probably weren't aware of the full extent of the plan, at least; I doubt they would have all been ready to get themselves killed. Even if they had an idea of what Karras' plan was about, I don't think they realized he was planning to kill his own followers as well. In any case, the mechanists certainly would have tried to keep everything secret.
Given what the Hammerites have written about him (check the readables in St. Edgar's - it's pretty blunt), I'd say that the common view is that something awful at Soulforge, even though there's no bodies around, there's enough evidence to make a case for it either being a Very Bad Thing or possibly a punishment from the Builder.
Let's not forget that Karras was a True Believer, and also very vain - he tended to write down his plans in true Master Villain style. The other thing to remember is that by this point, Karras had begun blackmailing and intimidating a number of important people. As more of his "covert" operations were dismantled (Truart's death, the loss of the KD project leader, the failure to caputre/kill Garrett), he became less subtle in his manipulations.
Quote:
But I'm still under the impression that in both T1 and T2, most of the City residents remained mostly oblivious to the great danger they were in, and apart from the Keepers, hardly anyone was aware that Garrett had saved them.
Oh, I agree with you regarding the City's knowledge of Garrett - only certain members of the Hammerite faction know his role in repelling the Trickster's invasion, and only some members of the Pagan faction would be aware of his role in bringing down Karras.
However, given the number of civilian deaths caused in TDP, some explanation had to be given. People would have seen the carnage. The same may hold true for the culmination of Karras' plot - those Mechanists not brought to Soulforge (and subsequently converted using the Servant process) would have been able to piece together what was intended. I'm sure those that returned to the Hammerite Church would have publicly declaimed Karras as a heretic.
Quote Posted by Marecki
My guess is that the Mechanists were an extremely pyramid-like order, with Karras as The Great Spiritual Leader, and therefore fell rapidly when their leader passed away. For one thing, consider how many Mechanist prayers Garrett could hear referred specifically and directly to Karras.
He was a charismatic religious/cult leader-figure. I don't think there was anyone in the Order that could take his place; they were all followers, by his design.
.j.
Jah on 10/7/2007 at 11:38
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Given what the Hammerites have written about him (check the readables in St. Edgar's - it's pretty blunt), I'd say that the common view is that something awful at Soulforge, even though there's no bodies around, there's enough evidence to make a case for it either being a Very Bad Thing or possibly a punishment from the Builder.
Well, I'm sure the Hammerites would have depicted Karras in that fashion regardless of what his plans were - for them, he was a competitor, and it was always in their interest to demonize him and the mechanists. But you're right about the New Scripture of the Master Builder - if those texts survived, they would have given strong clues about Karras' plans.
Quote Posted by Solabusca
He was a charismatic religious/cult leader-figure. I don't think there was anyone in the Order that could take his place; they were all followers, by his design.
I agree that no one could have taken Karras' place, since the whole Mechanist Order was built around his personality, and after his insanity was revealed to his followers, I doubt anyone would have wanted to step into his shoes anyway. But based on what has happened to different cults in real life, I could easily imagine some high-ranking mechanist forming a splinter faction, the New Mechanist Order or the New Order of The Gear, or something, which - while renouncing Karras' megalomaniac plans about bringing the Builder's paradise on earth - would still recognize the technological progress made by the mechanists, and would try to continue that progress while distancing itself from the personality cult Karras built around himself.
At least in one sense, the mechanists were more open-minded than the Hammers - they accepted women into their ranks. So there is at least one fairly large contingent of mechanists who would not have been able to join the Hammers, which makes me think there probably would have been demand for some kind of new religious group to be built upon the ruins of the Mechanist Order.
Mighty Hammer on 10/7/2007 at 13:21
Yeah, there is the big problem about a successor of Karras. Have you paid attention to the style in which normal mechanist engineers talk to the (surely higher-ranked) priests? They speak with them like good friends and tell them what they do wrong or not and make suggestions. Just listen to some conversations, such as the ghostly ones in Trail of blood. The priest loose authority. This is impossible in the order of the Hammer. And, with Cavadors death, the most capable successor was lost. So, I think the most logical thing would be that they split into several splinter groups, each lead by a rather charismatic priest and they all interpret Karras differently. Some would return to the hammers, but, as we see in the game, the Hammers are so few that we barely see them at all, so that would not have been enough hammers to bring the mechs down. And all the women who were respected as mechanists would surely not want to quit the job and become an ordinary cooking wife... And the mechs had a quite formidable fortress, unbeknownst by the city, where they would have been save from the hammers, namely Karath-Din. And I don't think anyone what have figured out himself Karras' plan, as a person here already said. The nobles would surely still apreciate their security machines, so they would not really start hating the mechs from one day to the other. So I think there should have surely been mechanists during the timeframe of TDS, but Eidos was too lazy to make up another story, especially something that could complicate their "become a friend of those groups" system.
Jah on 10/7/2007 at 15:42
Quote Posted by Mighty Hammer
Some would return to the hammers, but, as we see in the game, the Hammers are so few that we barely see them at all, so that would not have been enough hammers to bring the mechs down.
I think the fact that we hardly see any Hammerites in TMA (I only remember two - one in Shipping And Receiving and one in Masks) simply means that they had temporarily lost so much influence that they were keeping a lower profile. If you think about the locations in which the TMA missions take place, there aren't that many places where you could expect to see Hammerites - I would have expected to see some on the City streets, but there obviously aren't going to be any at the mechanist strongholds, and I don't see why they would hang out at the nobles' mansions, either (I could never quite figure out what the one in Masks is supposed to be doing in Lord Gervaisius' house). So I think the Hammers were more numerous even during TMA - you simply have no reason to deal with them they way you do in TDP or TDS.
