Samantha1 on 15/6/2021 at 11:53

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I understand. To hear how that man in the campaign lost his daughter was already sad enough, but in real life it must be unbearable. I think it is great how the author tried to deal with such a big loss by creating a story like this and trying to share the pain. If only we could reverse time and take the pain away in real life.

klatremus on 13/2/2023 at 05:37

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Below is a link to my Supreme Ghost playlist for this campaign. I would also like everyone to know that Ken Ramsley (frobber, the author) has recently posted very detailed in-depth comments about each of the missions, in case people wanted to read them. There is a lot of behind-the-scenes information that many of you will find highly interesting. As some of you also probably know, but that others might not, is that this campaign is a very personal and emotional creation for him, as his family went through something horrible a few years prior to its making. The story is heavily based on what happened, and he shares details about that in these comments as well. Although he hasn't played Thief since 2005, I know it helps him a lot to know people are still enjoying this very special campaign. It might be worth your look. He was a very influential mission creator in the early days of TTLG. Please take a look and perhaps send him your greetings. It would mean a lot.

(https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUqNXawrRQDUc5QqTMuhU9fKfoYEnPLcG)

Hit Deity on 13/2/2023 at 21:14

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This guy? I think he's doing ok. Seems to be anyway.

(https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152084)

klatremus on 14/2/2023 at 00:35

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Fortuni asked that I put Frobber's comments in here:


M1 The Enterprise

Yes, this is a dark mission. Watching now, years later, I didn't celebrate the evil when I built it. All the same, the trauma is more than necessary. BTW (for the sake of those who haven't noticed), I've added comments to all of Klatremus' KotP videos. I hope you appreciate a bit of author-generated background info.

19:23 - Agree with your comment. In fact, I would have agreed when I wrote that text. This is Garrett distracting himself, and Alisha describes Garrett's truer ambitions in her journal (found in the next mission at 1:03:57). The working title for this mission was 'Garrett's Choice' -- and the choice will center on this topic. Sometimes I wish I had never changed the title.

20:15 - The Thief 1 version of the Enterprise was all one mission. Because I was still new to DromEd2 -- I didn't know how to make the Thief 2 version all fit inside a single pathfinding brush (this is possible with multiple brushes). To get the thing done, I split the terrain into separate 'missions.'

29:35 - The rope drifting in the water is new to me. As I recall, in old dark, ropes do not even extend into the water

33:56 - In the Thief 1 version, there were a crazy number of guards. In the T2 version, I let far fewer wander continuously through a bunch of interlocking patrol routes. This keeps the place occupied without filling it with a laughable guard contingent.

34:08 - Rain and thunder sounds are ambients, not game events, so I doubt they affect AI alertness (but maybe they do in new dark).

44:22 - Project Vision alludes to a similarly-named research project inside the real-world version of this building ...a project that attempted a near-equally absurd outcome (that is all I can say).

1:20:24 - The frog is a reference to FM: Lord Fishkill's Curse.

1:23:11 - To expand the babbling repertoire of the guards I repurposed lines making it sound like they are edgy (or at least awake). These can sometimes sound like the AI are at a first alert. I also repurposed as many Thief 1 lines as applicable. Obviously, I did not build this campaign with ghosting players specifically in mind.

1:27:05 - Patrol routes are long and most are interconnected. At junction points, guards may or may not turn and head on a different route -- hence why they seem to turn at times, and not other times. As you figured out, reloading can sometimes send a guard heading where you want, and save a bit of waiting.

1:27:35 - I find it interesting that I worked very hard to open up this level when converting from the Thief 1 version ...only to see a proper application of ghosting rules limit the number of open avenues.

1:38:58 - As mentioned elsewhere (perhaps with a different explanation), the rock disappears because I felt it odd that Garrett could drag it through the hole. Making disappear is equally odd, so maybe it would have been best to leave this alone.

2:51:03 - The north freight lift actually works in this Thief 2 version, complete with sounds recorded from an open door while riding a commuter train into Boston's South Station ...perhaps the most distressed-sounding mechanical noise I have ever heard.

3:29:08 - Option 1, leave without reading this offer, or Option 2, read and leave as shown here. Including beta testers, I am unaware of anyone ending the mission by taking the first option (which I chose to allow for the sake of player freedom).

This is a dark and ruthless world ...to my mind, a pre-victorian version of the Roman Empire combining practical engineering with old-world barbarity. Perhaps I could have gone easier on the Latin-sounding names and descriptions of inhumanity. But what is done is done. Where the Thief 1 version was produced prior to 9/11, I saw this as a reflection of a bygone age. In our present time, I find it far more troubling.

The world of this campaign is authoritarian, feudalistic, and corrupt, but hardly capitalistic in any sense of how we see modern commerce. In reality, as I have found in many of my employers, success and common decency are not mutually exclusive concepts -- and I have no problem bashing examples where exploitation is a routine cost of doing business.


M2 Hallucinations

1:05:38 - you are correct on all points, including the photo ...taken 9 days before Jenny died in an ice storm. I commented on mission 1 and deleted it ...sorry to leave you wondering what happened. The entire campaign still brings back a lot more than I would like. On the other hand, you are doing a great job exploring everywhere, and I am seeing aspects of the design I had long forgotten ...so much better than watching players in a huge hurry. It's simple enough to explore and then reload. Kudos to Shadowspawn who built the clocks and to terrific voice-acting performances from too many volunteers to name.


M3 Insurrection

1:39:57 - Congrats on finding the very last pickpocket! To keep the mission populated with AI (and potential conflicts), most of those guards spend much of the mission trapped behind hidden gates that are opened by the master-event clock at specific times. Once I got this working, I can't say I hung around very often to watch every last guard emerge. FYI - I spent months trying to find a way to build a reliable master-clock that would keep its time after save/reload cycles. Also, none of the clocks you see in the campaign are tied to the mission master clock. Instead, their inner workings are carefully adjusted to move at the right speed.

15:43 - For the convenience of my own testing, shooting the lamp directly above this elevator on the main floor with any sort of arrow will return this lift back to the catacomb level (not a 'secret' - just something I never removed).

There are two dominant ambient audio loops -- one placed at the choir end and one in the narthex. The goal was to make a soundscape that gently varies according to location. At 16:21, you can hear both loops blended and overlapping in mostly equal measure. There are also punctuating sounds that suggest distant conflicts that can be heard from anywhere. The little girl laughing is an audio plant connecting to the very end of the series.

18:14 Many of the AI are on continuous interlinking patrol routes that produce unpredictable locations and varying AI-on-AI conflicts. As result, fewer AI are needed to produce player anxiety and each play-through winds up with slightly different AI outcomes.

19:24 - The clock tower sounds are from the 'Big Ben' clock in London.

48:08 - Somehow an 'around the corner' conversation did not trigger when you approached the unfrobbable gate when first entering the catacombs -- there you learn Slator's unfortunate fate (an awesome VO by Saturnine who we also hear making all of the public address announcements in this mission).

1:06:52 - Keeper of the Prophecies is Slyfox's debut campaign voicing 'Garrett.' Most candidates I auditioned attempted impersonations of Stephen Russell's rendition, but I was far more interested in someone able to wholly immerse himself in the character -- something Slyfox plainly demonstrates in his spectacular performances.

1:08:07 - The truly amazing part of this cathedral design is in the countless hours I spent looking for excessive complexity and finding ways to render the beast in pleasant ways that did not crash the old dark engine. In 'old dark,' we were limited to 1024 visible terrain brush polygons in any view. If the engine tried to render more than 1024 polygons, it was blue screen of death time. AI and object polygons are allowed on top of the terrain limit, but they could slow the rendering framerate, and where the entire database is substantially larger than the original game, I was constantly treading on thin ice. In fact, building this mission let me find the absolute max limits for many system resources.

Custom elevator sounds in this campaign come from an old warehouse building converted to office space in South Boston. I had a choice of 100 steps to reach the 4th floor or ride an old freight lift (guess which I chose most often). Several major cathedral building textures are from a church located ~1/4 mile from the starting line of the Boston Marathon.

1:21:36 - To my mind, the campaign takes place entirely between Thief 1 and 2 ...and I simply assume visits to the Lost City prior to the specific events of Thief 2. In fact, assuming this is where they found the portal gateway (and have been experimenting with it), these early visits are getting Karras and Cavador into trouble with the Hammers. As to 'canon' issues anywhere in this campaign, in the early 2000s FM creators didn't feel great urgency to follow the exacting prescriptions of the existing storylines.

1:26:33 - Any weight can switch the floor plates, including standing on them (and they latch in place to avoid a potential scripting disaster). There is nothing in the 'convict' script that requires a stone block.

The end credits are in anticipation of another three years before I released the rest of the campaign -- and I decided to credit everyone to this point. BTW - Garret falls at least ten miles during the outro (teleported between a half-dozen lengthy shafts).


M4 Oracle of the Prophets

The original plan for 'Oracle' was a three-mission off-world adventure. But it was way too much, and I decided on a basic test of Garrett's gumption -- the Oracle will speak, but only to someone willing to work for it. It's also, I suppose, a test for the game player. If you want this mission to end as soon as possible, once you crack the formula, it's pretty easy. And if you want to take on the AI ... well, good luck with that! Some of the 'gas bag' overloads even spawn fire elements when they are destroyed. Indeed, the AI models come from System Shock 2 - mostly from an SS2 fan-made AI upgrade pack credited somewhere in the readme.

Playing on 'normal' and 'hard' leave additional color-coded section gateways open and (maybe) a bit fewer patrolling AI. My design philosophy is the opposite of what I usually see -- most game levels are designed to be the most fun and rewarding on the highest difficulties. I start by putting everything I can into the easier difficulties and then turn up the heat on the diehard players. That way I am never penalizing someone who might be worried about playing on 'expert.'


M5 The Other Side of Time


7:12 - Garret has obviously been sent back in time -- that is not the mystery. Exactly which night and why -- finding that information is the goal of the mission (something unknown until the player finds it). The neutral 'non-hostle' Hammerites make sense at this time. There is no insurrection taking place, no hyped activity. And where the campaign takes place soon after the events of Thief 1 -- I assume that the Hammers still remember how Garrett rescued their high priest. I also assume that the cathedral is not particularly off-limits to a non-threatening visitor.

22:11 - To my way of thinking, the Hammers are self-righteous religious authoritarians -- but not beyond hope ...especially if they were to listen to their own words of proper living and apply them to themselves.

32:44 - Excellent that only a professional thief can pull this off without raising a response. I never knew it was possible (and tried really hard to keep this from happening!)

47:14 - Like a ghost, I do like like loose ends, and this readable explains why, in mission 2, Frantious might be in the possession of a cathedral gate key (FYI, in mission 2, if the player visits Franny's office before visiting the mortuary, the gate key will be found inside the desk of the mortician -- that way visiting both sites is required, no matter the order visited).

53:17 - The gate master has a choice of several lines to speak at this point -- consistent with my goal to make each game-playing experience a bit different. FYI, sounds of the giant gate and larger freights lifts (mission 1 and 8) were recorded through the open door of a commuter train while arriving at South Station in Boston.

55:00 - In thief 1, the engine lets us directly link an object to a watchful AI, and as soon as Garrett takes the object, the script fires up -- no ghostly thieving possible. In Thief 2, this script does not exist -- forcing us to design a custom solution. Exactly how I set this up, I do not remember.

56:09 - A comment on the topic of a 'tensionless' experience... IMHO Part 1 (mission 5) is a counterpoint to the tension in Part 2 (Mission 6). I would have preferred Part 1 and 2 all in one map -- and this is a two-part mission because the old dark engine did not let me do this (in fact, I hit nearly every old dark database limit when building mission 6). Lastly, it might help to understand that storytelling is my central goal, and from there, I add reasonable gameplaying elements. If I decide to write a story chapter beginning with a mellow experience -- so be it.


M6 Reversing the Order

15:18 - Alisha is essentially a ninja from System Shock 2. As soon as she reaches the new terrain section of the map, she deploys dual-wielding daggers. In generally, she is more powerful than anyone trying to kill her, and on average, she will defend herself enough to survive a number of engagements -- but not enough to fight her way all the way through to the end. This way, the player is incentivized to clear the way ahead -- but not penalized if a handful of enemies are missed. Also, a few assassins will begin to track Garrett -- a wild card to keep Garrett on his toes.

16:15 - There is nothing in the design that intentionally rewards a player for doing essentially nothing -- and it is nothing I ever tested (assuming it would never work). But as a matter of probability theory, it is nice to see that doing nothing is a non-zero possibility.

18:05 - The soon-to-be-released ninja version of Alisha and Franny + his patrolling guard entourage are waiting behind the doors in this hallway -- released by the master clock that is running events.

18:46 - I don't remember this being a problem (there were dozens of playtesters). I believe (though don't quote me) that leaning is enough to reach the loot and climbing over the bar is unnecessary.

45:10 - Alisha leaves the bar at a certain fixed time ...nothing related to where Garrett is located. Otherwise, there would be no urgency to clear the way ahead.

51:07 - The background hammering is the sound of a pile driver pounding a pier support into Boston Harbor.

54:46 - "Hiding won't save you, Thief!" -- but it will if you hide in the right places. Plainly, a trick I never knew about.

1:01:36 - Alisha makes it through the Old Village and into Garrett's apartment because she single-mindedly runs the last 100 feet past the guards -- and will not pause to fight with anyone. Partly, this makes sense for the sake of the story and partly to keep the 'Garrett' of the past from shooting her by accident if she were fighting in the street below his window.

1:02:40 - No waltzing -- instead running faster than any guard could follow. Of course, I suppose, once they'd failed to kill her, they wouldn't be standing around ...oh well.

1:25:40 - Franny can hear much better than he can see, and the assumption is that sound would be used to draw him to his doom. Better vision might have made it too easy for him to kill Alisha -- if they ever come across each other (Franny has a powerful ranged weapon, as we see).

1:25:28 - Opening the lower gridded gate here allows access to the same stream of water that winds up near Garrett's apartment in the Old Village -- a handy shortcut at times when it might matter.

1:25:54 - A 'convict' typo I never noticed -- where were you in 2004 when we were testing this mission? ;)

1:35:47 - I have taken several quivers full of arrows for this readable. Many players see the Keepers as benevolent overseers. In view of the darker nature of the Keepers we encounter in Thief 3 and the corrupting power of immense power -- my supposition here is rooted in a defensible line of thought. IMHO, effective storytelling takes us where the story naturally leads ...not always where we wish to go.

1:37:23 - The topic of 'ghosting rules' goes back to the early months of Thief 1 -- at least 24 years. In my opinion, we play the way we choose to play -- and whatever keeps the game interesting is a good thing. I, personally, never had the patience to ghost an entire mission. Instead, I tended to explore and limit opposition only as much as needed.

1:38:47 - Excellent observation (no more poisoning effect after killing Fanny). This event definitely breaks the chain of history -- but the complete progression of culpability (as we will learn) is a bit more complicated.


M7 The Inheritance

Much appreciate the playthrough and comments throughout the campaign. I always enjoy thoughtful feedback. The fact that people are still playing this campaign after all this time and care enough to study the details and offer critical opinions ...that helps me to see that this project was worth the effort. As a work of art, it is by far the most widely experienced output I have ever produced. I am still producing art, but I doubt I will ever see this sort of attention again.

Readables are going downhill in this mission -- typos offer evidence of how I was completely burned out at the end of the project. I wound up sick in bed for three weeks starting the day I finally released this thing.

21:22 -- this is Faustice (Capt of the Guards) ...but I can't remember if frobbing the body says so.

32:14 -- Early drafts slated the last three missions to be camvators -- and my beta testers talked me into making all but the last of them into 'walking' missions. I can't disagree with your wish for someone to be wandering around making things harder for Garrett. I imagined the workers waiting for aid from below ...whereupon they would attack the building (mainly to burn the place down). I also had the impression that many players would ignore the optional loot and head straight to the primary objective -- and where I really do want players heading straight to the end (which is why Garrett is here), it felt anticlimactic for much of anything else to happen.

41:40 -- I find it stupendous that the scripting (mostly) still works after ~20 years. I build this using Windows 98 on PCs we wouldn't even bother to keep as boat anchors today. Uploading the final release took nearly two hours and the readme includes all sorts of suggestions for how to limit the expected low framerate performance of 2005-vintage machines.

44:41 -- Until recently, the music starting here was often flagged by copyright filters. In the old days, there was no YouTube or any other widespread social media, and borrowing music from movies and other places never raised an eyebrow. These days, YouTube doesn't seem quite so worried -- especially where no one (except advertisers) leans on them to limit content.

50:05 -- Slyfoxx said it required numerous audio takes to get through this monologue -- he knew what it meant to me. We still have Judy (a small cabbage patch doll). She lounges on a shelf with some of Jenny's stuffed animal friends and gets dusted every so often. Jenny didn't fall through the ice, but it was ice that killed her. Ordinary rain suddenly began to freeze and she and my wife stopped to help at an accident scene where a pickup slid off the road. The driver of the pickup was okay, but when Sue and Jenny were walking back to their car, a Ford Explorer spun out and sent them flying into a stone wall. Sue spent a week in the ICU and survived. Jenny died on the way to the hospital. 24 years later, people still remember her, and for some reason, that seems to help.

fortuni on 14/2/2023 at 04:51

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Thanks for posting Frobber's comments, as you said some very interesting insights.