Thirith on 20/6/2011 at 12:51
Just subscribed to the mag, because it sounds like it's exactly the kind of thing I'm interested in. (Big surprise there...) Here's hoping it'll be worth it - it's been a while since I've had a subscription for a print magazine.
Koki on 20/6/2011 at 13:36
Quote Posted by Sulphur
But before that: narrative immersion isn't a buzzword I made up, it's something that games as a medium have an advantage over movies and books. Most games, you're literally in the story. Narrative immersion.
What are you even babbling about? Neither
narrative nor
immersion are in any way exclusive to games, and narrative immersion can't be either.
Quote:
This one does it
very differently because it's not about literal PoV immersion, so yeah, that's obviously going to make people with zero patience or curiosity like you want to repeatedly hit your head on the desk until your brains spill out your ears.
You keep babbling. The Path is a TPP "game" in which you directly control your character. How is the PoV, literal or metaphorical or metaphysical or whatever the fuck did you mean any different from other games?
Quote:
Back to your argument with Thirith: there's nothing wrong with games experimenting and testing the waters. Whether the experiment worked for everyone or not is a subjective thing. Don't you love how that word keeps coming up?
Waaait a minute. You're that Sulphur guy, aren't you? Why do I try to argue with someone who doesn't have any opinions?
I must be going insane.
But before I start foaming at the mouth:
Quote:
I never said The Path was 'rewarding'.
I guess must've misunderstood
piecing the narrative fragments together and having it all culminate once you reach the end trigger. How appropiate, with me ranting about high school writing back over at the first page.
For fucks sake, seriously.
Piercing the narrative fragments? What kind of person comes up with that shit?
Thirith on 20/6/2011 at 13:44
Quote Posted by Koki
For fucks sake, seriously.
Piercing the narrative fragments? What kind of person comes up with that shit?
Well, judging from Sulphur's bit that you're quoting, the kind of person that comes up with "piercing the narrative fragments" is... you. :p
Sulphur on 21/6/2011 at 17:15
Quote Posted by Koki
What are you even babbling about? Neither
narrative nor
immersion are in any way exclusive to games, and narrative immersion can't be either.
I didn't claim it was exclusive, I'm saying that games are in a better position to deliver narrative immersion because they're different from the passive mediums of books and movies. Games are not passive entertainment because they require interaction, which is far more immersive than merely watching pictures go by on a screen sans input from your end.
I really don't have to explain this shit to you, because it's common sense. I'm not trying to lecture you with made-up hokum, these are things everybody should know by now.
Quote:
You keep babbling. The Path is a TPP "game" in which you directly control your character. How is the PoV, literal or metaphorical or metaphysical or whatever the fuck did you mean any different from other games?
Yeah, you don't get this bit because you're Koki. You may control the 'character' from a TPP, but the 'character' has a mind of its own that at times will go against what you want it do, because it's not meant to be just a meat puppet or a free stand-in for you or your personality. It's not about literal immersion of yourself into the game even though it is for all intents and purposes a TPP game, it's about immersing you in the mind of the girl you've picked.
Quote:
Waaait a minute. You're that Sulphur guy, aren't you? Why do I try to argue with someone who doesn't have any opinions?
I must be going insane.
But before I start foaming at the mouth:
Here we go. Rerun time.
Learn to read. I was intrigued by it. You hate it. Those are opinions, I've stated mine previously in this thread, and so have you. You can't take the fact that my opinion is almost the opposite of what you feel, hence to you either myself or my opinion sucks because you're the ultimate judge of what make a good game and what doesn't.
Well, you're a fucking asshat. Your head is so far up your ass it's a fucking
beret.
That's my opinion. Now go ahead and disagree with me for all you're worth because you think I'm wrong, but you're not going to be able to change my views because, unfortunately, you're an asshat and I can't be bothered to listen to the rantings of an asshat.
That about sum up your worldview? Good. If you can't spot what's wrong with that picture, then you unfortunately really are an asshat.
Quote:
I guess must've misunderstood
piecing the narrative fragments together and having it all culminate once you reach the end trigger. How appropiate, with me ranting about high school writing back over at the first page.
A 'reward' implies earning something satisfying. This does not. There's a difference.
Quote:
For fucks sake, seriously.
Piercing the narrative fragments? What kind of person comes up with that shit?
Someone who's not much better at English than you, apparently.
Aerothorn on 22/6/2011 at 04:41
Quote Posted by Sulphur
I didn't claim it was exclusive, I'm saying that games are in a better position to deliver narrative immersion because they're different from the passive mediums of books and movies. Games are not passive entertainment because they require interaction, which is far more immersive than merely watching pictures go by on a screen sans input from your end.
This is, incidentally, the base thesis of my book (which is currently being reviewed by a publisher! yay!). It's not the singular thesis because, as you note, it's pretty obvious; but my editors noted that I was only making the point implicitly in my early drafts, and for those not versed with interactive media you really need to hammer this point home.
Which takes nothing away from passive media, which has its own equally obvious advantages; but the two forms are distinct, and have distinct advantages.
p.s. i totally pierced her narrative fragments if you know what i mean
Thirith on 22/6/2011 at 05:00
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
This is, incidentally, the base thesis of my book (which is currently being reviewed by a publisher! yay!). It's not the singular thesis because, as you note, it's pretty obvious; but my editors noted that I was only making the point implicitly in my early drafts, and for those not versed with interactive media you really need to hammer this point home.
Good luck with the publisher! In any case, I'd obviously have to read your thesis for the specifics, but in general it's something I very much agree with. Even if the interactivity is relatively limited, if it's well connected to the narrative it quickly serves to tie you more to the characters and world. I just played
Digital: A Love Story, and arguably it's interactive fiction (in the literal sense) more than a game, but it wouldn't work (or it'd have to work very differently) in non-interactive form.
june gloom on 22/6/2011 at 05:40
Good luck with publishing, bro. I trust you'll link us to the book on Amazon? ;)
Aerothorn on 22/6/2011 at 05:49
Certainly! As you're probably aware, it's pretty hellish going getting published as a first-time author, particularly when you're as young as I am (I'll fully admit: I'm proud of my book, but it's not The Pinnacle of Games Writing by any means). The only good news is that there isn't another volume that covers the exact same ground as I do, so I'm better off than Another Novelist. Currently trying to get published at a Friendly Small Press before resorting to a larger university press and/or working with an agent.
I look forward to seeing folks here argue my advocacy of Questionable Games (Shenmue, MGS series). But hey, at least System Shock gets a chapter.
Yakoob on 22/6/2011 at 16:00
Do make a thread with all links once its out, curious to read it :)
Sulphur on 22/6/2011 at 17:00
Dude! I thought it was going to be a college text, had no idea you had much more ambitious plans. Much luck to you! Remember us when you hit the big time. :)
