Knock 'em out!... But what's the catch?

TheGrimSmile on 7/6/2008 at 16:12

I was thinkin'... we should watch the outsides more XD.

No, but really, blackjacking people... what's the catch? Sure, it can't kill nearly as well as the sword, but it has so many upsides!

First, and most importantly, the fact that the blackjack (I like to call it COSC for "Crude Oddly Shaped Club", but I suppose bj will suffice) is stealthy. You can hit, drag, and hide without a sound, where as the sword (as mentioned in the game) makes for a very loud kill. The sword has no tactical advantage over the bj. Yes, you can get into hand-to-hand combat with the sword, but this is a stealth game! I suppose others may outright kill, but I try to get rid of people discretly (sp?). Best way is to sneak up and give 'em a good whack on the head. This is much easier to do with the bj than hoistin' that sword into the air. (do you think people hear the "Ugh, UAGH" when Garrett lifts that thing up?)

Secondly, you could make the argument that other knockout instruments (gas mines, gas arrows) are hard to find. Yes, there is the fact that they are expensive/hard to find and come in limited quantity. But our buddy the bj? You get that for free and have it forever, as with the sword. And the bj has adantages over the sword IMHO :thumb:

On all knockout instruments, what's the downside? Saying you skillfully use one of these handy tools. Then, you drag off and hide the victims, kill them if you wish. Now, let's take the sword, fire arrows, broadhead arrows, and mines into the picture. They're noisy and dangerous. How practical is that? Albeit they are easier to find than knockout items, does that make up the differance? Not to mention, said fire arrows really shine the spotlight on you. (how does he light those things, anyway?)

It just seems that some of these killing machines are a little unpractical for the thief/spy/ninja that Garrett seems to be. I'm not saying that I don't want these weapons, but they just don't seem to even out with the "ko"ers. I usually only use them when I'm playing around. Other than that, it's all stealth.

So, here's my conclucsion(s):

1. Well, a while ago, one of my sisters stated that she had left a servant in the sewers for a few hours (real time), and he had become a zombie when she returned. Though it's an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure she made it up. My other sister said that she had been holding an unconcious body for a few hours (again, in real time) and he awoke (she could tell because he began talking). She quickly threw him down a staircase, however. Well, that was probably my sis' imagination, too :sweat: In any case, is there any awakening or changing when a person is ko'ed, or is an unconcious body just the same as a corpse with a diff name?

2. That I'm overstating things and really, some people may think the oposite of my theory. Maybe it's just a personal thing :erg:

3. I'm missing some facts on these weapons and their effects. After all, I haven't done much with the undead (no megusta), but I don't think the bj works on them. Still, though, there aren't many undead missions, if any, in T2.

Well, that's about it. Tell me what you think! Yeah, some people are gonna call me an imbecile, but I'm used to that on ttlg forums XD My brain doesn't work ;)

Solabusca on 7/6/2008 at 20:14

Well, the thing to remember about the blackjack is that it's a skill-based weapon - you have to strike your opponent when he's unaware, or when you've managed to skillfully dodge him if he knows you're there.

The sword/dagger can be used if you don't have the skills required, or are fighting something nastier than a guard.

Thematically, Garrett is a thief, not a murderer. It shows a lack of class to permanently put down someone's guards.

As to your sister's comments: she's pulling your leg. People don't wake up, and don't turn into zombies if killed as a general rule.

(http://forums.eidosgames.com/old-ubb/Thief_Enemy_Hit_Point_List.htm) Some things to remember about swords vs. blackjack in TDP and TMA can be found here, as well as what to expect from the Undead in terms of their ability to absorb damage.

.j.

Chade on 8/6/2008 at 04:17

There's not really meant to be any downside to using the blackjack. It's a game of stealth, so using the blackjack over the sword is encouraged.

The point of having violent options (whether or not the standard mine is a stealth or a combat weapon is debatable, so ignore that for the moment) is to give a backup option to the player who can't sneak very well, not to be a viable alternative to stealth*.

The sneaky options need to be imbalanced because stealth requires the player to ignore many opportunities to "solve" a game situation with violence before they can solve the situation with stealth. Violence is always the most immediate and accessible option. This is the real downside to using the blackjack. If stealth wasn't over-powered it wouldn't be used.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Except thief was initially a swash-buckling game, so this isn't quite true. The action gameplay is there if you want it, but it's not really part of the game in the same way that stealth is.

Thief13x on 8/6/2008 at 17:05

the catch???

bonehoard;)

TheGrimSmile on 9/6/2008 at 00:24

Ya know, now that I think about it, I suppose it makes sense. Yeah. Thanks, people. I feel enlightened :laff:

And that is one of many reasons I don't make regular trip to the bonehoard. Though now I knida wish I coul... XD

Innocuous on 10/6/2008 at 01:37

Going around will-nilly black-jackin' people just seems like it shouldn't be a viable option.

If you were to put yourself in Garret's place, think about it for a second. When you are sneaking around, and you see a guard, that guard is on a patrol path. He meets up with other guards on that path and says a "sup" or its thief equivalent. If one of their guard buddies goes missing for too long, say past a bathroom break, they should call out for an alarm and start a search party for any miscreants, especially on the harder missions.

A really good thief wouldn't alert any guards, and would keep the black-jacks to a minimum. I know it is easy to just sneak up behind everyone and smack them in the back of the head, but that seems like it would violate garret's code of thievery.

I think if the game could support the above guard-checks, then it would. It seems to me like knocking people out is so easy as it is because of limitations in the game itself.

In real life, guards check in with radios and call signs and tango bravos. If someone goes missing for too long, it should alert everyone else.

The only exception would be, far out on the battlements, lets say, you knock out BOTH guards that are on a patrol path in a castle. Since you stopped both of them, then there is no-one to notice they are missing.

Chade on 10/6/2008 at 03:31

The trouble with that is that it gets rid of the most interesting short-term goals he player has in thief ... sneaking behind a guard. Black-jacking provides a bit of variety from the standard short-term goal which, whether collecting loot or getting to the next room, always consists of sneak to a nearby stationary location. At least blackjacking a patrolling guard is a bit more dynamic.

Innocuous on 10/6/2008 at 03:50

It may provide a short term bit of excitement, but after you blackjack everyone in a level, the game becomes a cake-walk. Half of the mission should be getting back out, and knocking everyone senseless makes that too easy.

Try playing the infiltrate the police station level of the metal age again. You are inside a friggin police station, so if you blackjack a police officer, everyone will know about it shortly. In other highly secured areas, you should be restricted by the same type of game mechanic.

On the other hand, knocking out a guard on the fringes of a location should go unnoticed for quite a while, giving you enough time to hopefully complete you objective.

I think this is why such gameplay restrictions such as ghosting, ironman etc. are made. First, blackjacking everyone makes it too easy, and second, knocking out 300 people and stacking them on each other is just a little too ridiculous.

TheGrimSmile on 10/6/2008 at 04:13

Perhaps, though ghosting is fun to some, I think the bj gives new sneak players (like myself) a way to actually beat the mission. Like the sword was mentioned as a weapon for tose unused to stealth games (or fun :p ), the bj is the same thing for a slightly higher level.

It's really the mission that decides the strategy for knocking people out. For example, I was just playing The Seventh Crystal, and found some guards to be unreachable due to their placement. The OMs were based around the bj as your main weapon because there were puzzles to make the game more difficult.

Lastly, and this is just personal, I sometimes find it disturbing to knock everyone out. Let's say you have a mission that, although full of regular old patrolling peeps, has a creepy setting to it. I sometimes finding soothing to know that there's something up and about other than me.

So, I guess it depends on what your interests are. I have never found that koing people has taken away from game experiance. However, I suppose it may for those some who've been playing this game since it came out :o

So, basically, I got nowhere in this post XD But, it's just my insight on the matter.

Chade on 10/6/2008 at 04:50

Innocous, bj'ing everyone may indeed depopulate the level, but allowing the player to use strategies that "complete" a room (or even an entire level) is no bad thing. It can be a mark of your progress across a mission. Many people will perceive it as an accomplishment that they deserve for going to such an effort. Most people will not end up bj'ing everyone unless they mean to go out of their way to do so (and if that's what they want then that's what they should be able to get).

I think you need to look at the game from the perspective of someone who is not a thief expert. Sure, for you bj'ing may be too easy and hence make the game boring, but that will not be the case for 99% of the people who play thief. From my memory of playing thief as a newbie, making the game boring by blackjacking everyone just didn't happen, unless I needed to find some loot (and in those cases I was glad of the ability to "make the game boring" as it enabled me to search a level with impunity).

In fact, let's look at it from the perspective of a thief expert as well. If you make a level which everyone is supposed to be able to ghost, what does a thief expert do for a challenge? T2 had a number of these levels, and compared to other levels they were bloody easy to ghost. If ghosting was normal, you'd kill off the number one way to "be an expert" thief player.