Thirith on 9/5/2012 at 06:05

---

Perhaps - but then, TTLG has a bearing on TTLG's demise. TTLG has long consisted of too much bile, smug self-satisfaction, meta-jokery for those in the now, arguments that for all the verbiage don't go far beyond "You're wrong!"/"No, *you*'re wrong!". Not exclusively, but largely. The Facebook group has brought people out of the woodwork that haven't been around for years; the atmosphere there is friendly and not dickish. I don't necessarily think it's going to stay like that, but you're kidding yourself if you think that the demise of TTLG isn't largely due to what we've let TTLG become, Facebook or not.

Briareos H on 9/5/2012 at 07:33

---

facebook has a bearing on CommChat's demise, and CommChat has been dead since at least 2008.

Thirith on 9/5/2012 at 07:56

---

Just like you can ignore the loudmouth pissheads around you at a dingy pub, but at some point you are going to ask yourself whether a different place might be nicer.

Also, *people are still here*. I'm still here. People have commented on the atmosphere at TTLG getting worse over the last few years, and they've tried changing it. You're talking as if at the first minor flame war people packed their bags and headed for the Facebook hills, which is simply not accurate - in terms of activity TTLG has been on a decline for years. There was more activity when Deus Ex: Human Revolution came out, but this has been developing over a long time.

Finally, you're talking as if people are heading to Facebook because it's the newest fad, and that's either disingenuous or naive. People came to TTLG because of Looking Glass Games, but they stayed for the community - and the community can be a community on any platform. People don't magically change because they post on Facebook. But a new place may serve as a bit of a blank slate, and that may be what is needed.

I'll post here until the end; I'm not a big fan of Facebook myself. But Kolya and you overstate the culpability of Facebook and either underestimate or ignore that TTLG has been bleeding people and activity for years. Saying "You guys are just not trying hard enough!" comes across as whining, to be honest - especially since the FB thing is an attempt to keep the community going or even to reinvigorate it. How is that not trying to make things better?

heywood on 9/5/2012 at 10:04

---

First, to GBM: Thanks for the work on Thief and the site.

Now, let's all make a pact to stop all the pining and navel gazing that keeps showing up in so many Comm Chat threads. People grow. Priorities change. Interests change. Time gets short. And people move on. It happens, it's normal, and it's OK. People who keep their eyes in the rear view mirror are shitty drivers.

I guess if your primary reason for visiting TTLG is to see what your old TTLG friends are up to, maybe it is best to move on to a better medium for that. As much as I dislike the vapid, cursory, narcissistic, or simply uninteresting nature of most Facebook content, if you want to stay in contact with a large number of people without a huge amount of effort I don't know of anything better.

TTLG was first and foremost a site about games. It still is. As PigLick said earlier in the thread, Gen Gaming seems to be the focal point now. TTLG will live on just fine without Comm Chat. Not at the level it did a decade ago, but it's still going well considering it's original Raison d'être.

And Comm Chat isn't dying because of Facebook. It's dying because there's not enough new blood to replace the attrition. Attrition is normal and you can't stop it, so stop complaining about people leaving. No social organization or site can sustain itself without attracting new members, and Comm Chat is unfriendly to noobs. Muzman has a point about ignoring the things you don't like, but I think it's a lot easier to ignore dethtoll vs. <insert poster here> fights if you're familiar with the people. The noob just sees too many flame threads and if some veteran happens to think their opinion is wrong they get run out of town. I'm not saying we all need to treat each other like pansy asses and go out and recruit new members, because that's not going to happen. I'm just suggesting we all accept that the clock runs clockwise and that the conditions that created this place and made it prosper were unique and no longer exist.

I will miss the interesting people and interesting conversations here.

Muzman on 9/5/2012 at 10:29

---

No you can't because they are actively making the nerves in your ears fire and that's physically tiring.
Scrolling past stuff you didn't want to see or get involved in was always part of the game. That's why I'm saying it's post hoc rationalisation. I haven't got the MRI scans to prove it but that's what I'm going with. It isn't that TTLG changed so much, but people did. Or a mixture thereof. But this is old news.


Really? Honest question; besides griping what happened? I'm not saying you're wrong. I want to know what you're thinking of (maybe we do need a shoutbawks or something). The obvious solution to a lack of activity is more activity, but for one reason or another people didn't do that. I think that saying "well I don't care for the joint anymore because of X" type sentiments are people looking for a reason. To be fair I do think most people acknowledge that their life took them away from TTLG not ttlg itself (although plenty still throw in a "and it smells! and and.. no one laughs at my jokes as much the fiftieth time and there's a bunch of meanies" to round it off)


People absolutely are into facebook because it was the newest fad. Just not right this minute. A couple of years back usually (unless you're me). I know Zuck won't hear of it, but it too shall pass. I'm not expecting forums to suddenly make a comeback at that point, however, whenever that is. The internet will be thoroughly gameified by then. But that's another matter.

Anyway, TTLGs decline has been the biggest subject the place has discussed for years, next to Bioshock. Saying "You guys are just not trying hard enough!" is exactly the thing that needs to be said. I think it's the elephant in the room (even though someone has probably said it before years back). Bleeding people and activity is entirely down to active people not being active (but still remaining people, presumably). I just don't buy that it's the tone or whatever that did it. People disengaged because they disengaged. Dreaming up reasons comes after (if there aren't specifically practical ones that they are quite aware of).
I think you underestimate the culpability of facebook. This is a system built from the ground up to deliver attention, contact and activity between people quickly and conveniently and above all constantly. That's the key to its success. It's got that immediacy that looks like convenience which we all love these days. As Stitch was describing not too long ago, this is most of the things people used to come to forums for, only forums are now a lot slower about it - particularly if there's less people than before. If a forum lives and dies by its activity, but facebook renders that activity less convenient and more like work, that is going to have an influence on the level of forum activity and need I point out where that inevitably leads. If the core membership starts fading and just wants to stay in contact now and then, well facebook's going to do that with you barely lifting a finger and make it seem even more substantial than the forum ever was (and in fairness, let it actually be substantial if you like).
This is the way it is now. There's no doubt in my mind facebook ttlg will draw activity away from actual ttlg to its detriment. People can get sniffy about haters and contrarians and what not. It doesn't matter if it's been happening for years. I don't really care. We're talking about it this minute. The only thing that really matters is recognition of where we're at.

It won't prop itself up, is the thing. If people won't or can't do anything about that, or think it doesn't matter then that's fine. Perfectly alright. But I dispute that it was TTLG or comm chat's fault that they feel this way, for the most part. Or that it provides any serious obstacle for them attempting to do things now. Discouraging attitudes and people aren't new. If you're walking away you (and that's a generic "you") are walking away probably for your own reasons (or slowly drifting, whatever). If you still think forums have some value and don't want to see it wither entirely then you know what you've got to do: ie something. Don't know what exactly, but recognition is a start.
My general gripe is people blaming TTLG for its own woes, so I'm going to employ some specious psych and call most of this self justification by people assuaging some mild guilt at their drifting away from the place. Yeah, people love it when you say "You know those feelings of yours about this situation? Yeah well, broad brush, I'm just going to say it's your brain fucking with you so you feel better about regrets at the passage of time and so on". Don't dwell on that too much, is my advice to people, lest you foldarms yourself into oblivion. Concentrate instead on the small point that; leaving is fine, not caring as much is fine, moving elsewhere is fine, but blaming the forum/community for its woes and people's movements isn't as big a part of the story as people often say. Moving on to what we actually think could happen from here is a better question (particularly if you like the forums and just moving to facebook as well doesn't really cut it).