Iceblade on 19/5/2009 at 18:09
Alright, so we know from Soulforge how some of our tools are created (mines, flash bombs, flash mines, flares, and scouting orbs), but what are the other uses for these tools either than for Thiefy pursuits. Sure there is a big black market pull for these items, but the machines to make them were produced by legitimate people for legal uses.
First the mine makes since as it has a pretty straight forward use for the Baron, City Watch (though not so much), guards, and of course nobles (protect their vaults).
The flashbomb seems a bit odd for regular use however and the same goes for the flash mine. Is the main legal use for these to arrest thieves instead of killing them. A nonlethal weapon (or tool) to do it in for a thief. Heh, a lot use these get in the legal sector...all of the guards are too slash happy to be bothered to use them....course they wouldn't work as guards are too stupid to avert their own eyes. So I guess this could be considered more a failed tool that really took off with use by Thieves...especially a certain former Keeper.
I guess a similar rational can be used for the gas mine....nonlethal take down, but more effective. Still why this item would fail, I can only guess comes from the gas crystal's rarity. Can't buy more than a few of these, so they don't make for the best defense (though they should work great in vaults...especially sense what thief would pass up a chance at the vault (poof, now you not only have the thief, but all of the stuff he stole from you). Then again...I would imagine the point of guards is to guard the person moreso than the loot.
Scouting orbs used for security and flares for lighting in dark places...not really odd about these.
Noisemakers however? No idea here.
nicked on 19/5/2009 at 18:29
I think a lot of the tools don't have any legitimate purpose; they've been created by criminals for criminals, or created by craftsmen being threatened/blackmailed by criminals for criminals.
infinity on 19/5/2009 at 18:31
How do we know this?
Iceblade on 19/5/2009 at 18:40
Mechanists make these items, however. (though there weren't any actual plans for flashbombs and flashmines, so it could be said that these machines weren't meant for buildings flashbombs, but could given the right materials)
But you do have to consider that armories and guards' barracks have flashbombs and gas mines....what did they do, get these items from thieves they caught?
CEEtheDinoman on 19/5/2009 at 19:29
I always thought the flashbomb was developed by the Hammers as an anti-undead tool. It _is_ fairly effective. As to the rest, I think it's the Mechanists delving into security. In a criminal-ridden city, no wonder the Mechanists made so much dough. To me, noisemaker arrows are the invention of the thief equippers, and the same for the idea of affixing crystals as arrowheads, but as we see those crystals aren't purely illegal either. What surprises me is that Garrett didn't invent stuff himself. I mean, he can break into warehouses and factories, he should've totally invented something! Other than a quotes scroll that is. ;)
Solabusca on 19/5/2009 at 22:08
Potential non-criminal uses for items found around the City:
Flash Bombs/Flash Mines: Law enforcement takedowns have already been noted. Anti-Undead traps as crafted by Hammerites have also been suggested - both are valid, although I lean more to the latter than the former.
Elemental Crystal (Water): Possibly used as a fire-extinguishing system by the City. Surprising we haven't seen more of the City's fire-fighting techniques, given that there are a lot of wood buildings in the City proper.
Elemental Crystal (Fire): Military application. Several armouries around the City feature them. I wonder if Fire Crystals are used in the crafting of mines?
Elemental Crystal (Gas): Possibly used in crafting gas-traps and gas mines (and by TDS, gas grenades) for non-lethal crowd control.
Elemental Crystal (Earth): It has been suggested on these forums that they get used as a mulch or fertilizer.
Rope Arrow: I see no non-stealth based application for these, and would suggest that they're used primarily by thieves.
Noisemaker Arrow: See Rope Arrow.
Scouting Orb: There seem to be a lot of these lying around, especially in the Watch station - too many to have been left behind by Garrett. I'd suggest that the Watch (and probably the Army) makes use of these in conjunction with Mechanist provided receivers (either a monocular goggle or some form of visual display connected aetherically to the Orb). Of course, as a result, the underworld would most likely take them up too.
'Bout sums it up, I think.
Iceblade on 19/5/2009 at 22:41
Flashbombs would have to be used in non-lethal takedowns (at least bought and stored for such a purpose) as we see them too often in guard areas. Now granted, they may have been originally crafted for anti-undead purposes....maybe even as a result of the cataclysm.
For rope arrows, they can come in handy especially when getting to hiding places for loot by (maybe not so much nobles) the lower classes (artisans mostly). Biggest aspect of use I see might be by carpenters to get to areas without having to use a ladder (probably cheaper too).
For crystals, I doubt they were made by humans (pagan or otherwise) and are more probably an aspect of the thief world similar to crystal and diamond formation in reality (just a lot faster and we its faster especially in the cases of gas and water arrows which would have to form in short periods of time considering where they are found: gas near exhaust points of factories that have been around for less than 25 years and water in sinks and troughs that probably refilled once every month or so.
The noisemaker arrow I can see as being a handcrafted tool that could be made easily by boyers (possibly, it depends on what is required for the arrow to make that noise).
The gas mines are the oddest one as they seem to combine mine manufacturing with the use of natural gas crystals (really odd in the case of the mechanists). It would be interesting to see a machine that could make one. This sort of manufacturing, however, sounds rather expensive and not cost effective as the player would be using up a fairly easy to use/aim projectile to make the mine, which is nice for defense or ambush but a little difficult to use on offense without requiring effective noisemaker/broadhead arrow herding tactics. It wouldn't be so expensive for the player, though, if you could use arrow shards from several gas arrow uses. Would be an interesting bit of salvaging, actually.
Solabusca on 19/5/2009 at 23:49
Quote Posted by Iceblade
For rope arrows, they can come in handy especially when getting to hiding places for loot by (maybe not so much nobles) the lower classes (artisans mostly). Biggest aspect of use I see might be by carpenters to get to areas without having to use a ladder (probably cheaper too).
Then why do we see so many ladders? No, I'd suspect that Rope Arrows are used primarily by people interested in stealthy pursuits - whether that includes various agents of the factions or thieves is up for debate.
Quote Posted by Iceblade
For crystals, I doubt they were made by humans (pagan or otherwise) and are more probably an aspect of the thief world similar to crystal and diamond formation in reality (just a lot faster and we its faster especially in the cases of gas and water arrows which would have to form in short periods of time considering where they are found: gas near exhaust points of factories that have been around for less than 25 years and water in sinks and troughs that probably refilled once every month or so.
Quick point - we were talking USE, not creation. Elemental crystals are a natural phenomenon of the Thief world, and have been heavily discussed in other threads. As a legitimate USE for something that is an observable occurrence in the Thief setting, I listed a few ideas following what the elemental crystals are. I don't think it was a sneak-thief who first came up with strapping a fire crystal to an arrow-shaft.
Quote Posted by Iceblade
The noisemaker arrow I can see as being a handcrafted tool that could be made easily by bowyers (possibly, it depends on what is required for the arrow to make that noise).
I don't think a noisemaker ARROW has any legal function, as it's designed to draw attention away from a location. The noisemaker, however, is probably based on a novelty design.
Quote Posted by Iceblade
The gas mines are the oddest one as they seem to combine mine manufacturing with the use of natural gas crystals (really odd in the case of the mechanists).
Why odd? They make use of fire, wind and water, too. And gravity. I don't think that the Mechanists see the formation of elemental crystals as 'natural/pagan-y' magic, but rather as just another aspect of the metaphysical reality of their world. Science and technology, if you will.
.j.
Beleg Cúthalion on 20/5/2009 at 07:24
I think flash bombs, explosive mines, all sorts of gas bombs and even rope arrows might serve for military use without a problem, maybe even noisemaker arrows (sieges, hidden infiltrations etc.). I'd like if there were only few people who would use those elemental crystals as weapons or stick them on arrow shafts - most people wouldn't have use for it anyway (except maybe fire crystals as BBQ charcoal lighters).
hexhunter on 24/5/2009 at 12:38
Most of a thieves tools were first made for adventurers.
Scouting Orbs definitely are, they can be used by adventurers, miners and archeoligists.
Flash Bombs and Mines can be used by adventurers to blind creatures and burn the undead.
Water Arrows are supposedly used for suppressing fires, I'd like to see the City Fire Brigade with a Water Ballista though. Useful for adventurers.
Fire Arrows are used like RPGs or anti-building munitions. Useful for adventurers.
Moss Arrows could be used to make slippery surfaces safer. Useful for adventurers.
Gas Arrows could also be used against creatures or larger fires. Useful for adventurers.
Rope Arrows are almost definitely used by adventurers, miners and scouts to ascend and descend caves.
Noisemaker Arrows can be used to distract creatures or maybe check the depth of a cavern. Useful for adventurers.
-- Deus X Machina
