Let's talk about the Builder Paradise!

jtr7 on 9/4/2009 at 23:04

You guys just like me to drone on long-winded. You all have the resources available to you, but no...:laff:

Karras calls the Necrotic Mutox, "The Builder's breath":

Like I said, kar1602K: "Alas, I alone must wait for purification. I must remain alive to greet The Builder, while all around me all else is cleansed by His wondrous breath. The day shall come when I, too, breathe in His perfection. My burden is heaviest now, but my rewards will be greatest...later. Praise The Builder for all His wisdom!"

PLUS, kar1602M: "Soon all will be blessed with the breath of The Builder: the Necrotic Mutox that I created. And all the souls--the rich that spurned me, the City Watch that betrayed me, the loathsome Pagans, the mindless commoners, even the loyal followers of Karras, all!--all will receive the blessing and the cleansing. But will they raise up their arms and praise Karras as the vapors make them pure? Nay! They will wail and scream--most ungrateful!"

Since we cannot say that all the land is connected by enough life to keep the reaction going beyond the craggy mountains, and we don't know how far away the nearest cities and towns are, we can't say how far it will spread beyond The City, only that Karras (in an UNUSED text) said it would go beyond:
[INDENT]M16B50: "The New Scripture of The Master Builder (draft, page 41)

To assist his calculations Karras drafted a map of the city, and now He saw the circles He had drawn and was pleased. Nowhere was there a place that would be uncleansed by the Necrotic Mutox, and its effects would extend beyond the city. The circles conjoined in the center, the very heart of the city, the same city that had spurned Karras and denounced The Builder. Karras knew from this sign that all was to be as He had seen.
Karras spake: 'Master Builder, Karras will not fail you as the Precursors did! Where an entire civilization denied Thee and was felled by Thy hand, Karras shall do Thy will! Thank Thee for directing Karras to their ashes, to discover their error and Thy gifts they misused, that Karras now uses as Thou intended. Karras hath built for Thee Thy Children, the successors of the human race, and now by Thy hand Karras shall wipe away the plague that we are, that Thy Children may last eternal, in purity.'
But The Builder spoke to Karras, then, saying 'Oh Karras, Thou art truly faithful as Thou sayest. I give Thee now this command: that Thou shall remain Thyself alive when all about Thee turns to Holy Rust. When My Paradise has come, Thou shall have a place beside Me, among My Children.'
And Karras fell to his knees and cried out, 'Thank Thee, Master Builder! Thy will shall be done!'"[/INDENT]

Sorry I didn't type my sentence about food as clear as we all would've preferred. Of course, the ridiculous notion of birds underwater was due to a poor choice of sentence structure, and we don't know if penguins exist on that world, but certainly not in the oceans lapping The City's shores. Sea birds, migrating birds, birds that move up and down the coast or fly far out over the oceans.

(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1714980#post1714980)

massimilianogoi on 10/4/2009 at 03:33

I guess this speaks alone:

[INDENT]But The Builder spoke to Karras, then, saying 'Oh Karras, Thou art truly faithful as Thou sayest. I give Thee now this command: that Thou shall remain Thyself alive when all about Thee turns to Holy Rust. When My Paradise has come, Thou shall have a place beside Me, among My Children.'.
And Karras fell to his knees and cried out, 'Thank Thee, Master Builder! Thy will shall be done!'"[/INDENT]

Here Karras writes about taking place beside the Builder, that with "breathing beside" could mean live with the Builder. Don't forget that often "to breathe" is synonymous with "live".
More: here Karras bears himself as a pardoned, like one who has been forgived from the death sentence, and his falling into his knees and crying is a common behaviour of one that has been pardoned, and who has fear of the death.

Quote Posted by jtr7

Sorry I didn't type my sentence about food as clear as we all would've preferred. Of course, the ridiculous notion of birds underwater was due to a poor choice of sentence structure, and we don't know if penguins exist on that world, but certainly not in the oceans lapping The City's shores. Sea birds, migrating birds, birds that move up and down the coast or fly far out over the oceans.

Ah, ok.

jtr7 on 10/4/2009 at 04:00

I know the point you are trying to make about breath, but that's not what the words are saying. It's a metaphor, related to the Servants "exhaling" the rust-gas through the lips of the Mask.

He literally calls the Necrotic Mutox the Builder's breath, His perfection, His "breath" cleansing the land, the same way Cavador was told to "cleanse" the Lost City with Mutox. Karras believed the Mutox was the very key to what he felt the Builder's intention was, what Karras's purpose and vision were.

[INDENT]M14B03: "The New Scripture of The Master Builder (draft, page 16)
Karras saw that a person, an animal, a plant, anything ill-borne of nature, then consumed by the gaseous Necrotic Mutox would dissolve into rust. Karras had observed this many times, over and over again, for in it He felt the presence of Truth. Whether released by a container or through the lips of a Servant's mask, Karras would observe the action of the gas from a spot as close to the area of effect as He possibly could in safety. When the rust settled, Karras would zealously scrutinize the remains for meaning.

And now Karras looked back upon those investigations, and He spoke aloud, saying: 'Oh Master Builder, I have felt Your will. I know that I have been chosen to bring Your Paradise to the world. I know that I must not fail, or Your wrath shall consume me and I shall lie forever in the Forest You have saved for those who are unholy. Master Builder, My mind shall be sharp, My machines will not falter, and I will keep Karras from the risk of death. In Your name I shall construct a protective chamber in Soulforge Cathedral, and there, where I cannot be harmed, Karras shall stay. I shall reconsider every element of My plan - if any are weak, Karras shall make them sound.'"[/INDENT]

Breath in every one of Karras's uses of the term is the literal inhalation and exhalation of air--gases. He never speaks of "purification" without righteous destruction as a primary step to achieving it. He never uses the term "cleansing" without meaning that something is filthy with organic materials. He's talking about his apocalyptic plan with the rust-gas when he alludes to the cleansing and purifying Builder's breath blowing across the land, to bring about Paradise, unmarred by weeds, etc.

massimilianogoi on 10/4/2009 at 04:13

Sorry, but this phrase is really ambiguous:

kar1602K: "Alas, I alone must wait for purification. I must remain alive to greet The Builder, while all around me all else is cleansed by His wondrous breath. The day shall come when I, too, breathe in His perfection.

Karras could mean also "One day I will die (for oldness), and I will take place beside the Builder"

M14B03: "The New Scripture of The Master Builder (draft, page 16)
... I know that I must not fail, or Your wrath shall consume me and I shall lie forever in the Forest You have saved for those who are unholy. ...'"

Hahaha :laff: I really cannot think to Karras wandering forever in a forest... what he would do there? lol

Herr_Garrett on 10/4/2009 at 06:55

Quote Posted by massimilianogoi

"His perfection", here, equals with "His wondrous breath", i.e., the Necrotic Mutox. Karras wanted to commit suicide with the Rust Gas after all his plans were finished, accomplished, and successful.

That's manic psychopaths for you.

massimilianogoi on 19/4/2009 at 21:24

Hmmmm.. C'mon!!! There must be another way! :laff:

I doubt that the genius who was Karras would be so dumb to erase himself after having created is perfect world... O at least I don't want to believe it.

In facts, when the rust gas would have done its work, all the vegetables and flesh would be underwater, but this goes against a Karras's teachings ("the Flesh is imperfect, the Flesh is loathesome") O_O

I'm confused, I really don't know what to think...

If only there would be more elements...

Stath MIA on 19/4/2009 at 22:33

But alas, that is the brilliant madness of Karras, as far as he was concerned he was following the Builder's will. If you thought that God had personally appeared to you and told you to do something, even something that seemed completely insane, wouldn't you do it? Some of the worst things imaginable have been done in the service of God. The way I see it, Karras trusted the "Builder's Plan" to be completely flawless and therefore worthy of absolute trust.

jtr7 on 19/4/2009 at 23:30

He's not ERASING himself, he's PERFECTING himself! He's ERASING the FLESH, and becoming PERFECT! This is EXACTLY what the message is all along.

This is how he sees the Builder's Paradise:

Quote:

New Scripture of the Master Builder
Innermost Thoughts

I dreamt that the Builder came unto me. We walked
together amid the empty buildings. No tree barred
our path, no creatures scurried forth. No foot fell
there, save ours. So pleased was He with all I had
done that he turned my flesh to iron with a wave of
His mighty hand. I wept with joy, tears as slick
as mercury, and thanked him for his gifts.
Great is the power of the Master Builder.

"WARNING: Allowest thou one of the Builder's Children to start this machine. Thy paltry flesh may not withstand the searing pains."

"Thinkest thou thy own soft body of leaky flesh and wheezing gasses is glorious to the eyes of The Builder? Nay! 'Tis thy soul that is the only thing of any worth. So it is with the children of Karras, for they are the blessed and immortal heirs of The Builder, while I and thou are but the paltry tools that forged them."

"A child of flesh is loathsome and ill-tempered. But for what they lack, Karras has forged a child of metal that is constant...and true. I am that child."

"The flesh is imperfect. It is unclean. It putrefies, but I am forged in The Builder's image, without...flesh."

"Fire is The Builder's purification. Blessed are those who are born of the fire. The flesh is sinful. Woe to those who are born of it."

"I detest...the tongue, and abhor the lips. For lips...and tongue...can twist...truth into liiies. I am a child of Karras, and no lips...or tongue...have I."

He doesn't consider it a BAD thing, nor does he consider it a great sacrifice. This is really simple, folks.

massimilianogoi on 20/4/2009 at 22:37

Quote:

New Scripture of the Master Builder
Innermost Thoughts

... So pleased was He with all I had
done that he turned my flesh to iron with a wave of
His mighty hand.

That's it, Jason: this phrase explicated another theory different by your, that is the turning the flesh into iron, but not erasing completely himself. If we concern that iron isn't meant here as rust, though.

jtr7 on 21/4/2009 at 00:36

Almost any talk of rust in the game is always in reference to the Necrotic Mutox. Karras enjoys the metaphorical irony of flesh dissolving into something like rust. Apparently the highly oxidation-prone iron of the Thief Universe doesn't corrode as it does in real life. If ferric oxide is what the solid end product of the reaction is, then it's probably all the iron found in a human body (0.004 % of a person's total body weight, which for my fat ass is about 1 Lbs. or less than half a Kilogram of rust on the floor if I were dessicated by mutox).

Also, thinking about it, the Metal Age prophecy doesn't sound like it's written from a robot's point of view, but of a person trapped in a metal hell. Why should soulless robot's lament? Rather, I believe, it's the point of view of someone with a soul, who was of flesh, but has been changed:

Quote:

My hand is copper.
My brow is lead.
Suffer me in a red patina,
swept along in a molten flow
to a sad eternity.
My stride interrupted
my thoughts untimed
my tears are become drops of silver
and shattered the crystalline fern.
I plead the wind to sweep us away.

My alabastrine limbs, useless and tired,
my carnelian heart, beatless and mired.

I pick the gilded apple from the iron tree
I wipe the rust from my brow

The earth rejects me, foul and changed,
the wind refuses me, unsightly and maimed.
My voice is corrupted, my tongue unwind,
my pulse is mercurial sickened, it slows.

Destiny and danger are stil focused on The One,
the renegade who is both Brethen and Betrayer.

Beware the spider, for he weaves both labyrinth and lair.

My heart it ceases, my breath undrawn.
My eyes forever focused
on the sanguine metal dawn.

Beware the spider [KARRAS]...

Inline Image:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TMA_cs05_01850.jpg

For he WEAVES...both labyrinth and lair [SOULFORGE, where he plans to activate the Rust Gas from the Masked Servants in 30 strategically chosen mansions]:

Quote:

From the unused M16B50: To assist his calculations Karras drafted a map of the city, and now He saw
the circles He had drawn and was pleased. Nowhere was there a place that
would be uncleansed by the Necrotic Mutox, and its effects would extend
beyond the city. The circles conjoined in the center, the very heart of
the city, the same city that had spurned Karras and denounced The Builder.
Karras knew from this sign that all was to be as He had seen.

kar1602E: "Still alive, Garrett? Thou scurries about like a mouse. And for what? Why not leave this place and try to destroy each of the Servants? Oh, but there are thirty mansions, too many to infiltrate in one night? You misspend your last hours of life. 'Tis equally dignified to laze in a field and await thy death, heh."

kar0609g: "(Truart speaking, continued:) You need subjects for your Servant project, and I can supply them. Vagabonds, street scum, prostitutes...those who will not be missed by anyone of consequence. They'll be rounded up, charges invented, et cetera. Still, there's always risk. So I will give you...twenty, no more. For your part, you'll remember to keep our transactions absolutely secret! And of course, deliver my payment--in advance, in full--tomorrow. I don't trust you, Karras, so you'll receive the subjects only after I confirm the payment."

There are 28 nobles' homes accounted for in all the texts and missions.

A VERY rough and overly-simplified illustration showing thirty circles of destruction conjoined at the center over the heart of the city or just north of it:
(http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/?action=view&current=RustGasCoverage.gif)

Inline Image:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/th_RustGasCoverage.gif

Of course, the circles would be of varying sizes and spread out even further North, East, and West.

I consider this foreshadowing:

Inline Image:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TMA_cs05_01887.jpg

The spider, dead, dessicated, and turned to dust in his own web as the camera lingers on it. The dusty innards are even propelled out of the body by the escape of gases, hissing, possibly to make the point further.