Let's talk gamepads and joysticks for the PC... - by lost_soul
nicked on 31/3/2010 at 12:22
Didn't think wireless 360 pads worked with PCs? Or is there a dongle or something you can get?
Gryzemuis on 31/3/2010 at 14:17
I play with a joystick and trackball. All my games. World of Warcraft, which requires a gazillion buttons. Shooters like Unreal Tournament which require fast responses. And anything in between.
The beginningIn the old Unreal shooter game, the best deathmatch player was playing with a joystick/trackball combination. He was called Overtoad. He played with a PantherXL from Madcatz. That was an integrated joystick with trackball. This got me interested in joysticks for games. This was late 1999.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_XL)
Inline Image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Pantherxl.jpgI have owned 2 of those. But they kept breaking. I also owned 2 or 3 standalone joysticks of that type. Those also got problems after a while. A pain in the ass to replace them, as they were sold in the US only. So I stopped using Madcatz crap.
The trackballOne of the problems with the joystick/trackball combination is that almost all joysticks are for the right hand. Which forces you to use your left hand for the mouse or trackball. Which limits you to mice or trackballs which are either symmetrical, or especially made for the lefthand.
I use a Logitech MarbleMouse. (Now called Trackman Marble, it seems).
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http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/trackballs/devices/4680&cl=us,en)
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http://www.logitech.com/repository/2536/png/18323.1.0.pngThis is an awesome trackball. 4 Buttons. Optical sensor. Easy to clean. Very precise. Unbreakable. I've been using them for 11 years now. Low strain on the wrist, fingers and shoulder. That helps prevent CTS/RSI. The only downside is that in shooters, using my left hand for aiming is a slight disadvantage. I'm used to using my left hand. But I think I'll never aim as good as with my right hand. For non-shooter games, like RPGs, Thief, etc, it's no problem at all.
Cheap joysticksI've used several Logitech joysticks. Two problems:
They have a limited amount of buttons. That is no problem in a simple shooter, but in RPGs you want more than 5 or 8 buttons. The second problem was: the Logitech joysticks kept breaking every 3 months on average. I usually got a new one on warranty. And then when that one broke, bought a new one. I got sick of that. I did play Thief1, Thief2 and System Shock2 with a Logitech MarbleMouse and Wingman joystick combination.
The ultimate solution: an awesome joystickAbout 6 years ago, I bought another joystick. Best joystick ever.
The (
http://www.chproducts.com/retail/j_fighter_usb.html) Fighter Stick USB by (
http://www.chproducts.com/) CH Products.
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http://www.chproducts.com/retail/joysticks/fighter_usb_lg.jpgCH Products makes professional gear. Sticks for in real airplanes. Industrial controllers. And they make a few game controllers, like the Fighterstick. It shows. My Fighterstick is 6 years old now, and doesn't show any wear yet. I had no problems yet. Very robust.
It has a shitload of buttons. Enough for any game.
I still play a bit of WoW. You use a lot of abilities, macros, etc during combat. So you need a lot of buttons.
1 Trigger button. One pinky button. One easy button on the side. One awkward button on the top. Three 4-way hat-switches, acting as 3x4 separate buttons. And a 8-way hat-switch. I only use 4 directions on it. So basically 4 4-way hat-switches. That gives 20 buttons. You can configure a shift-button. So the pinky button gives me an alternate functionality on each button. So in the end, you'll have effectively 38 abilities available.
UsageI use the trackball for mouselook. Just like others use a mouse. I use trackball buttons like others use their mousebuttons. Except "shoot" functionality on shooters. Pressing a shoot-button on the mouse will make you move the mouse slightly. Decreasing aim. I use the trigger button on the joystick for shoot.
I use the x-axis and y-axis on the joystick for movement. This allows me to move around, while pressing abilities. On a keyboard, you might need to let go of WASD to press a special ability. I don't.
ProgrammabilityMany joysticks allow you to reprogram their buttons. I won't call this programability. I'd call it configurability. The CH Product joysticks are actually fully programmable. They come with their own full-blown programming language !! As an example: I have programmed a setting for Unreal Tournament, where I will dodge when I press the pinky button. Move left, press pinky, and you dodge left. Move forward, press pinky, and you dodge forward. In some regards this works even better than dodging with a keyboard. (I'm 100% confident you can't dodge forward like I can). I have a different profile for every game I play. It sometimes takes a while to set up, but once that is done, every game plays very smoothly.
I've been playing with the MarbleMouse and FighterStick setup for 6.5 years now. I will never go back to the keyboard. I can set it up to play any game conveniently. I've played WoW, Morrowind, Crysis, FarCry, The Witcher, Age of Conan, Aion, HL, GTA, UT99, about everything with this set up. I am convinced it is a better setup than keyboard+mouse. I wonder why so few people play with this setup. Fear of change ?
gunsmoke on 31/3/2010 at 14:27
Logitech Dual-Action 2. . It has 2 analog sticks, and resembles a 3rd-party PS2 Dual-Shock 2 controller. It works flawlessly in each game I have tried. Some favorites that I find the controller a better option than keyboard/mouse:
Pro Race Driver
Broken Sword 3: The Sleeping Dragon
Lego Indiana Jones (though the game sucks and I don't touch it anymore)
Psychonauts
Independence War II: Edge of Chaos (together with a flight stick and keyboard/mouse...complicated)
Summoner 1 (I had it for PS2 first, so I was having trouble with muscle memory switching to KB/M)
TheOutrider on 31/3/2010 at 16:04
As for using gamepads with games that don't support them, or don't support all of their features, Xpadder is pretty rad. Allows for custom setups on any DirectX game controller, mapping it to keyboard buttons, mouse axes. You can script things, map different buttons on different levels of analogue stick movement and all of those fancy things you're never going to actually need. Was money well spent for me. :)
Renzatic on 31/3/2010 at 17:10
Another vote for the 360 pad here. It is, by and far, the most comfortable gamepad I've ever used. Mix it up with Joy2Key (because I'm too cheap to buy Xpadder), and I can play just about any game I want with the gamepad.
In fact, I like the 360 pad so much, I'm considering buying a converter so I can use it instead of the DualShock controllers when I eventually get around to buying a PS3.
steo on 31/3/2010 at 17:24
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
Pressing a shoot-button on the mouse will make you move the mouse slightly. Decreasing aim.
I don't know about you and your crushing index finger of doom, but I can click just fine without moving the mouse. Unless you were referring to the buttons on your trackball? I have a keyboard, mouse and 360 controller for console ports which were obviously designed to be played with one. I wouln't want to invest in expensive hardware like trackballs and joysticks because I'm doing just fine with what I've got and don't want to waste money and probably fear the potential hassle of getting it all set up properly.
Matthew on 31/3/2010 at 17:33
I've always liked trackballs when I've used them, I must admit.
My X52 is something similar to LittleFlower's CH stick, though with lesser build quality (by comparison; it's still top-notch stuff) and a much cheaper price.
Pidesco on 31/3/2010 at 19:24
I have an XFX XGear gamepad which is based on the PS2 gamepad design. It's awesome, programmable, with great buttons and sticks, a competent dpad and made with volcanic rubber, which means it's super comfortable. The only fault is its size, wihch is a bit on the large size, but if you are an adult it shouldn't be a problem at all.
I use it mostly for gaming on the sofa, recently meaning DMC4, SF4 and Last Remnant.
NamelessPlayer on 31/3/2010 at 20:09
Hmmm....where do I start?
Flight controls:
-Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar (FCC-modded), Thrustmaster RCS pedals (Hall sensor-modded)
Very ergonomic (a particular beef I have with CH Products stuff), very programmable (only thing beating out TM's logical programming is CH's full-blown scripting language, developed by the same guy!), and well-suited for when I'm in a Falcon 4.0 mood, F-16-style controls and all. However, the stick mod that was installed when I bought it makes it more realistic for modern jets...at the cost of all semblance of precision for prop-driven aircraft.
-Logitech WingMan Strike Force 3D
Fairly ergonomic, cheap, force-feedback, and notable for having two hat switches where most non-HOTAS stuff only have one. However, whoever engineered the gimbals-in particular, how the pots couple to them-should be slapped and fired, because in the stock configuration, moving the stick physically along ONLY the X or Y axis WILL induce electrical response in the other due to pot play. I'm not using it at the moment since I'm thinking of what linkages I should get to make a cheap modification to fix this possible.
-Logitech WingMan Interceptor
Fits my hand like a glove (seriously unparalleled ergonomics here), three hat switches, compact, has a nice throw with not too much resistance, and is precise without the X/Y response issues of the later Strike Force 3D, despite having what seems to be uneven deadzone at the extremes. However, there's no rudder twist, and even more irritatingly for today's hardware, has a DIGITAL GAMEPORT interface. Also lacks decent driver support for anything beyond Win9x.
I kind of wish they'd make a new version with a twist rudder and USB for when I have to get my BF1942 or maybe IL-2 fix on my notebook, as well as for those who don't have the money and/or space for the G940.
Gamepads:
-Microsoft Xbox 360 (wireless)
A lot of newer games seem to only support XInput, so it makes sense for me to have one of these. However, the DirectInput support with MS's stock drivers sucks. No adjustable deadzone on the twiddlysticks, triggers are locked into a combined axis rather than split axes or buttons when desired, right stick is X Rotation/Y Rotation rather than the usual Rudder (or Z Rotation) and Throttle (or Z) for older pads, and the rumble feedback doesn't work through DirectInput, either.
XBCD drivers can fix that and then some, but at the cost of native XInput support in current versions. You can at least restore the controls with an XInput emulator, but rumble feedback still won't work.
-Microsoft Xbox Controller S + spliced standard USB adapter cable + XBCD drivers
Preferred for DirectInput games for the reasons outlined above. I don't want to kill the XInput functionality of my X360 pad, so I just use one of the older Xbox pads instead for when I need XBCD's features.
-Microsoft SideWinder Freestyle Pro
An old late-1990s gamepad with a motion-sensing accelerometer as its main gimmick well before the Wiimote popularized it. It works surprisingly well in that respect, though there aren't many games I would like to play in that fashion.
Most of the buttons are pretty good, but the D-Pad redefines horrible. Seriously, I'd take even the Xbox 360 D-Pad over this one. Every time I try to press in a cardinal direction, I end up getting a diagonal instead. It's a damn shame since this one has a nice A/B/C/X/Y/Z face button layout and some shoulder buttons that fighting game fans and such would love, not to mention some LONG grips for ergonomics' sake.
-Spacetec SpaceOrb 360
This is hardly a typical gamepad, as the titular orb on the left side of the device shows. Said orb reacts to all six degrees of freedom-translational AND rotational X, Y, and Z. Perfect for Descent and other such titles when you get used to it.
The right hand controls two triggers and four face buttons. I find this sadly lacking, but the unofficial hidsporb drivers for 2000/XP allow one to turn the A/B triggers into shift buttons, effectively multiplying the four face buttons by four (unshifted, A, B, A+B).
Unfortunately, it uses an old RS-232/DB-9 serial interface and currently has no drivers for Vista or Win7, much less 64-bit ones, but there's this OrbDuino project to turn an Arduino controller into a USB HID conversion device for the ol' Orb, no drivers needed.
Racing wheels:
-Microsoft SideWinder Force-Feedback Wheel (2nd revision, red grips)
Old, discontinued, and relatively basic compared to the higher-end Logitech wheels out there (let alone the Fanatec, TSW, or ECCI offerings), but it still does the basics pretty well. Six face buttons with a nice click, two paddle shifters, a large "FORCE" button in the middle to turn FFB on or off, basic throttle and brake pedals, and a huge, single vice-like clamp with a quick release lever.
Stock centering force feels detent-like and still leaves a bit of center play, and worse off, you won't have any drivers to adjust that if you're running anything more recent than XP 32-bit. (With Vista/Win7, it's plug-and-play, but the basic drivers are all you get. Thankfully, the pedals are on separate axes...) Of course, chances are you'll just set everything in-game anyway.
I'd probably be more interested in sticking with it if not for this really annoying quirk with a SEGA Model 2 arcade emulator and FFB enabled-it screws with the game timing pretty horribly. A Logitech Driving Force Pro borrowed from a neighbor does NOT. Everything else works fine with FFB on, though.
Really specialized stuff:
-NaturalPoint TrackIR 4 Pro
There is no way I would want to play a flight sim without this any more. Racing sims, I could kind of get by without, but it still adds a bit of immersion. Just tilting your head is much more convenient than finagling with a hat switch to keep the enemy in view so you can manuever properly.
My only issue with it is that it's rarely supported outside of flight sims, racing sims, and Armed Assault.
-Steel Battalion control panel + pedals (2nd revision, blue buttons & re-engineered pedals)
This thing is quite bulky, but surprisingly not that heavy, probably due to a mostly plastic construction. 33 discrete buttons, a clicky mini-stick for panning view, a 7-position linear manual shifter, a left stick that only moves left/right and centers, a right stick with three buttons that does NOT center (aiming in Steel Battalion is kind of like joystick aim in MechWarrior 2 or Heavy Gear II, which is why a non-centering stick makes sense), and three big pedals with plenty of travel and plenty of tension to boot.
XP users have the VTCHID drivers for using a set on a PC (provided you have an adapter breakaway cable to make it work in a standard USB port), but they haven't been updated for Vista or Win7 users to my knowledge. Even then, I think the pedals were reduced to buttons no matter what, and the shifter could only serve as a seven-position throttle that obviously lacks fine control. (Perhaps I'll have to learn programming to port those drivers myself...)
And on a final note about trackballs, I still have a CH Products DT225 that I'm trying to figure out what to do with. I'm just far more comfortable with a conventional mouse (currently using a Logitech G500), and the DT225 only has four buttons and no scroll wheel. While it is the most programmable mouse out there due to it being supported in the Control Manager like all their flight sim gear and thus having those powerful scripting capabilities, there just aren't enough physical controls, not to mention that the inertia that large trackballs like that tend to have unnerves me a bit.
