CCCToad on 19/10/2012 at 05:33
Quote Posted by Kolya
Correspondingly the principles of separation of powers, innocent until proven guilty, the right to a fair trial and the right not be subjected to torture constantly save lifes and protect people. Whereas your comic book fantasies of saving a thousand lifes through torture is incredibly unlikely. And even if it would arise, tossing these rights out would not be the solution. Again that idea is either retarded or misleading people by scare tactics into endangering themselves by giving up rights that protect themselves. Why would you make such an argument, SE? Just for argument's sake I hope, in which case you got what you wanted and might as well acknowledge now that legalising torture would be very dumb.
Kolya just did a very good job of describing NeoCon "logic"
Peanuckle on 19/10/2012 at 06:54
Quote Posted by Vivian
As well as being a punishment, long-term imprisonment prevents re-offending in quite a practical way (at least while they are imprisoned) and should allow for personal improvement (either self or externally applied)...
Except it doesn't. Long term imprisonment causes people to commit crimes inside the prison (assault, rape, etc.) and prisons tend to act more as crime schools than any kind of rehabilitation. Some kid gets smashed and drives his car into a telephone pole. He goes to jail for a basically benign offense: He didn't intend any harm, he was just stupid. In prison however, he's prey, and has to toughen up to survive. Additionally, he's surrounded by harder criminals who teach him all sorts of unsavory skills. (assuming American for all this).
"67.5% of prisoners released in 1994 were rearrested within 3 years, an increase over the 62.5% found for those released in 1983"
Just pulled that from the Bureau of Justice.
I don't mean to argue for torture, but it's fairly obvious that prison isn't doing the job its supposed to, and is actually adding to the problem. Then there's the fact that prisoners are wards of the state, so taxpayers are paying to keep murderers and rapists alive.
DDL on 19/10/2012 at 07:59
"Assuming American for all this"
"it's fairly obvious that prison isn't doing the job its supposed to"
Sure there's room for prison reform in the US, but this is not an argument for "prison as a concept doesn't work".
EDIT: also, two data points does not a trend make, so even if we restrict this to the US you're on very shaky ground regarding prison "adding to the problem".
Also, your use of the phrase "to keep murderers and rapists alive" is worrying. Are you suggesting "prison doesn't work, so let's murder people instead"?
LarryG on 19/10/2012 at 20:53
Quote Posted by DDL
"prison doesn't work, so let's murder people instead"?
That would sure keep down the recidivism; it's hard to commit new crimes if you're dead. A bit hard on those who are convicted due to errors or incompetence in the legal system, but hey, if you want an omelet some eggs gotta get broken, right? If you want safety and security, someone's rights gotta get trampled some.
CCCToad on 20/10/2012 at 03:48
Quote Posted by LarryG
That would sure keep down the recidivism; it's hard to commit new crimes if you're dead. A bit hard on those who are convicted due to errors or incompetence in the legal system, but hey, if you want an omelet some eggs gotta get broken, right? If you want safety and security, someone's rights gotta get trampled some.
And I'm willing to bet that as soon as someone from your favorite political party makes this argument (and they will, both parties agree on this point) that your attitude will go from mockery to nodding in appreciation of the leader's profound wisdom.
LarryG on 20/10/2012 at 04:41
Quote Posted by CCCToad
And I'm willing to bet that as soon as someone from your favorite political party makes this argument (and they will, both parties agree on this point) that your attitude will go from mockery to nodding in appreciation of the leader's profound wisdom.
You would be wrong. They have and I don't.
june gloom on 20/10/2012 at 05:54
oh like that'll throw him off
Vasquez on 20/10/2012 at 06:44
Quote Posted by CCCToad
And I'm willing to bet that as soon as someone from your favorite political party makes this argument (and they will, both parties agree on this point) that your attitude will go from mockery to nodding in appreciation of the leader's profound wisdom.
You swing your opinions according to what your political leaders say? :weird:
(And why am I surprised?)
Kolya on 20/10/2012 at 09:43
No, he just thinks that others do. You know, the mindless drones, the sheeple who cannot think for themselves. They need a (
http://vimeo.com/18658658) WAKE UP CALL!!
And CCC is here to deal it to them. :D✌
Peanuckle on 21/10/2012 at 22:29
Quote Posted by DDL
Also, your use of the phrase "to keep murderers and rapists
alive" is worrying. Are you suggesting "prison doesn't work, so let's murder people instead"?
No. I'm suggesting that instead of having taxpayers foot tremendous bills so that these criminals can have comfortable beds, fresh food and computer access, we treat them like the monsters they are and lock them in a tiny individual cell where they're lucky to have a mattress on their bedsprings.
With America's current system, it actually costs more to execute someone than to imprison them for life. So we might as well get rid of capital punishment because we're really just burning ourselves.
