Let's talk torture - TTLG Forums

CCCToad on 22/10/2012 at 04:38

Quote Posted by Kolya

No, he just thinks that others do. You know, the mindless drones, the sheeple who cannot think for themselves. They need a (http://vimeo.com/18658658) WAKE UP CALL!!
And CCC is here to deal it to them. :D✌

I don't need to "think". It's been polled and proven.

(http://www.salon.com/2012/06/21/are_liberals_national_security_hypocrites/)

Vasquez on 22/10/2012 at 04:51

You do understand that 53 or even 60% isn't the same as 100%?

Quote Posted by CCCToad

I don't need to "think".

This time I'm not surprised.

CCCToad on 22/10/2012 at 05:34

Quote Posted by Vasquez

You do understand that 53 or even 60% isn't the same as 100%?

This time I'm not surprised.

IT doesn't need to be 100%, to claim that "everyone" in the Democratic party is hypocrite would be both ludicrous and unprovable. A more realistic estimation is "many", and that claim is backed by both that and other polling numbers.

Not like Republicans are any different. Watching conservative pundits (http://legalinsurrection.com/2011/12/ann-coulter-cant-explain-her-flip-flop-on-romney/) Stumble over themselves to explain their support for Romney, and why he's better than Obama has been an amusing spectacle.

Vasquez on 22/10/2012 at 05:51

Yet you were willing to bet that LarryG is a "hypocrite".

june gloom on 22/10/2012 at 08:51

Quote Posted by Vasquez

This time I'm not surprised.

i don't know much but i know i love you

SubJeff on 22/10/2012 at 09:32

SO IN CONCLUSION

Thanks for the discussion guys. It's been hijacked by that idiot CCC having some political axe to grind and not having the balls to make his own thread about it so I'm out.

My final thoughts, based on this discussion:

As a utilitarian and a pragmatist I have to conclude that torture in select circumstances would be both useful and the moral thing to do.

The thin end of the wedge argument is not applicable here as one could have strict protocols.

However, as a humanitarian and general all round nice-guy, I think torture should never practically be used in the way that I theoretically agree with because:

1. There needs to be too many provisos on it's use, so much so that I think it would be unworkable.

2. I don't trust that amount of horror/power in the hands of any government - I think it would lead to abuse. This is the same reason I disagreed with the ID card proposal in the UK; useful in theory, practically too dangerous.

Thanks for your input everyone. It was mostly interesting with very little freaking out (hi Koyla), and with the level of thought and discussion that I know only TTLG can give. See you all for the next one.

DDL on 22/10/2012 at 09:51

Quote Posted by Peanuckle

No. I'm suggesting that instead of having taxpayers foot tremendous bills so that these criminals can have comfortable beds, fresh food and computer access, we treat them like the monsters they are and lock them in a tiny individual cell where they're lucky to have a mattress on their bedsprings.

Ah yes. Nothing quite says "rehabilitation" like calling someone a monster and then locking them in a tiny isolated cell.

Unless you're happy to lock people away forever (in which case, hell: why not shoot them?) then you're always going to have to release these people, so doing your very fucking best to make their imprisonment as deliberately shitty as possible is unlikely to pay dividends in the long run.

Plus with wrongful convictions (while admittedly difficult to estimate) apparently running at roughly 0.5-1% of all cases (up to 3% in capital cases), you're happily endorsing the infliction of deliberate suffering not only on criminals, but also a whole load of wholly innocent people.

..and this thread was mostly about whether it was ok to torture people for information, not "torture them for years just because they're a murderer..probably."

So I guess we know where you stand now, eh?

EDIT: godfucking damnit, firefox: fucking refresh :(

Vasquez on 22/10/2012 at 09:58

oo dethy you big flirt

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

Thanks for your input everyone.

You think it's over? hahaha

Kolya on 22/10/2012 at 22:26

Stay tuned until next week when SubJeff breaks other taboos most of us have given much thought so far:
- Should the lower classes be allowed to breed more than they can feed?
- Can public punishment help deter smalltime criminals?
- Is forced labour a viable way to help the economy? (Hint: Sometimes it is.)

SubJeff on 22/10/2012 at 22:36

Stay tuned for Koyla's discussion topic, fresh and exciting, coming soon in err um er its quite the oddity but I can't seem to

I'd suggest you supply a topic of discussion of your own, one that will delight and stimulate us, but I fear it beyond you and I don't want to come across all superior dear chap. Rumour has it you have a young lady's life to make a misery of, and I'll be dashed if I'm going to be accused with egging you towards a dereliction of duty so... as you were.