Level scaling OR Don't play RPGs then girlie man. - by SubJeff
SubJeff on 8/1/2011 at 10:34
WTF is UP with this?
I'll admit it - level scaling to foes annoys me SO much I skipped Oblivion completely when I read about it. The scaling in it sound absolutely preposterous. Fallout 3's sounds rather incomprehensible too, though I have heard that New Vegas redresses the issue.
Skyrim (lol, rim) is going to have scaling of some sort; Fallout 3-esk it would seem.
I don't know if there are worse offenders but Bethesda, really? This is making a fiasco out of RPGs. A major factor in RPGs is leveling, learning new skills/abilities, becoming more powerful. Don't you realise that level scaling nullifies this?
Dolts.
zombe on 8/1/2011 at 11:14
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Don't you realise that level scaling nullifies this?
Oblivion actually made it worse than that. The time i reached the imperial city (or what ever) - there was no enemy left in the world i could harm (gear does not match enemy level/hp AND combat related skills are still extremely low). I did not know that using your character specific skills will make the game completely unplayable x_x
reizak on 8/1/2011 at 11:14
I understood that there's only scaling in the sense that when you pick up a quest they might populate the related locations with different foes, not that their attributes get scaled. Not that that's ideal either. They got so much negative feedback on Oblivion's scaling that I can't imagine they'd replicate it, at least.
They like to boast about the total freedom in their games, which is fair enough, but that should also include the freedom to be as ambitious or unambitious as you like as regards to when you choose to tackle something. I just recently played through Gothic for the first time and my favorite thing about it was that it never held your hand or tried to protect you from yourself, and if I wanted to run around like a reckless idiot and get horribly murdered I could. That one little thing made the world feel a lot less gamey.
Anyway, if the scaling in Skyrim is such that when I go somewhere at a high level I'm more likely to bump into a minotaur where there normally would be a goblin, I can deal with it. If they do it like in Oblivion and instead scale that goblin to hell and back so that I have to wail on it for fifteen minutes in order to see the health bar move, I guess it'll be up to the modders to fix it again.
Thirith on 8/1/2011 at 11:55
What was the problem with Fallout 3 or Morrowind style scaling? Obviously Oblivion implemented scaling in an utterly stupid way, but in what practical ways did it make the former two games a worse experience?
Zerker on 8/1/2011 at 12:31
I definitely agree on the Oblivion scaling; after a while my characters became harder and harder to use, so I stopped playing. I should probably try again with a balance mod when I run out of other games to play. Fallout 3, however, I didn't have any problem with. I think they at least got it fairly good with that game.
Morrowind I couldn't really comment on. I had a hard time at early levels, until I made myself a magic paralysis weapon or something and broke the combat balance entirely.
Jason Moyer on 8/1/2011 at 12:39
I dunno why Bethesda gets flack for this when Bioware and other action RPG makers do the exact same goddamn thing. The worst cases are Diablo-esque games, but it's there in pretty much every decent RPG from the past 5 years.
Also, while I don't like the way levelling was handled in Oblivion, I didn't really find it made the game all that hard. When the game came out there were a lot of "omg I'm a level 12 Thief and I was killed by a bear!!!!" complaints, presumably because people are used to being overpowered jack-of-all-trades in aRPG's instead of having to use their damn class skills. And if there's any complaint to be had with Bethesda games, it's that they're ridiculously easy because the PC always ends up being a jack-of-all-trades superhero.
SubJeff on 8/1/2011 at 12:42
Quote Posted by Thirith
What was the problem with
Fallout 3 or
Morrowind style scaling? Obviously
Oblivion implemented scaling in an utterly stupid way, but in what practical ways did it make the former two games a worse experience?
Morrowind didn't scale afaik. There were weaker enemies in the lower level areas so you stood a chance. It was still hard though. And at a certain point in the game demons of a fairly high level began appearing.
What was good about it was that at low level you couldn't waltz into The Dungeon Of DOOOOM and at high level if you went to some low level areas the enemies were easy to swat away.
Afaik Fallout 3 level locks areas based on your level and when you first go there. Therefore if you are low level and go to Area X if you go back at a high level the enemies will be level locked appropriate to your initial level. Thus you can manipulate (by choice or chance) the difficulty of the enemies in any area. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I've both read this and been told it by friends who've played it (and New Vegas).
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
I dunno why Bethesda gets flack for this when Bioware and other action RPG makers do the exact same goddamn thing.
because your gay?
Jason Moyer on 8/1/2011 at 12:51
New Vegas has areas that are meant for high-level characters from the beginning of the game. Until you're in your teens level-wise, wandering off the main road is a 50/50 proposition at best.
SubJeff on 8/1/2011 at 12:57
And this is new information how? Isn't this what I've been saying I was told?
I stand by my "your gay" comment even more now, being as it was actually a ephemism for "piss off".
ffs just go have babies with CCC and live happily ever after in some hole that is nowhere near a net connection
Jason Moyer on 8/1/2011 at 13:09
You said the difficulty was locked in based on the character's level, so you could come back to areas you previously visited and they'd be easier later. I'm saying there are areas that are locked in for high level characters no matter what level you are when you first visit them. Many, many areas. TBH, I don't remember seeing level scaling at all in FNV, even in the wilderness. If it's there it's subtle.
Edit: I give a shit about your personal criticism, considering you're taking the piss out of games you apparently haven't actually played. If you skipped Oblivion because of levelling enemies, then don't play any Bioware, Obsidian, or Troika games, which do the same things, and definitely skip Diablo and its many clones (Torchlight, Titan Quest, Sacred, Divinity), because their entire existence is based on levelling enemies and loot.
