Level scaling OR Don't play RPGs then girlie man. - by SubJeff
steo on 8/1/2011 at 13:41
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
You said the difficulty was locked in based on the character's level, so you could come back to areas you previously visited and they'd be easier later. I'm saying there are areas that are locked in for high level characters no matter what level you are when you first visit them. Many, many areas. TBH, I don't remember seeing level scaling at all in FNV, even in the wilderness. If it's there it's subtle.
Edit: I give a shit about your personal criticism, considering you're taking the piss out of games you apparently haven't actually played. If you skipped Oblivion because of levelling enemies, then don't play any Bioware, Obsidian, or Troika games, which do the same things, and definitely skip Diablo and its many clones (Torchlight, Titan Quest, Sacred, Divinity), because their entire existence is based on levelling enemies and loot.
QFSE.
I'm pretty sure there was zero level scaling in Arcanum and VtMB, I presume you're referring to ToEE when you mention Troika using level scaling? I agree that level scaling is crappy in Bioware/Obsidian games, but the way that they're structured means that there isn't any alternative, unless they want to force you to play areas in a specific order. The reason why it's so much worse in Oblivion is that it is a completely open game and you're free to go to any area at any point and return at any later point to find that it's been repopulated with much harder enemies. In other words, it's the level of freedom you get in Oblivion which makes the level scaling so much more noticeable and annoying.
SubJeff on 8/1/2011 at 13:55
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
You said the difficulty was locked in based on the character's level, so you could come back to areas you previously visited and they'd be easier later. I'm saying there are areas that are locked in for high level characters no matter what level you are when you first visit them.
Are you talking about Fallout 3 here, or New Vegas?
Jason Moyer on 8/1/2011 at 14:35
New Vegas.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I've both read this and been told it by friends who've played it (and New Vegas).
SubJeff on 8/1/2011 at 15:17
Exactly.
You're talking about New Vegas, I'm talking about Fallout 3 Vanilla.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
though I have heard that New Vegas redresses the issue.
was the reason for my personal attack - because you're a twatknacker who doesn't pay attention, assimilate, think or speak sense.
Kuuso on 8/1/2011 at 15:52
Level scaling in Oblivion wouldn't have been so bad, if they goblins etc. had changed in appearance to accumulate to their newly found badassery. I think enemies loot/armor scaled with levels, maybe it should have stayed at that.
What made the scaling so annoying is that it turned combat into a very tedious hack'n'slash where it takes AGES to kill even a simple foe. I'd imagine a game where only armor and weapons scale with the players level could work.
Thirith on 8/1/2011 at 16:00
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Morrowind didn't scale afaik. There were weaker enemies in the lower level areas so you stood a chance. It was still hard though. And at a certain point in the game demons of a fairly high level began appearing.
Apparently there was scaling ((
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_IV:_Oblivion) see here: "Oblivion's predecessor, Morrowind, also had a level-scaling system on creatures"), which makes me think that the problem with
Oblivion was more with the way the scaling was implemented than with scaling itself.
steo on 8/1/2011 at 16:06
it's basically all the fault of console gamers being n00bs then
Bluegrime on 8/1/2011 at 16:08
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
When the game came out there were a lot of "omg I'm a level 12 Thief and I was killed by a bear!!!!" complaints, presumably because people are used to being overpowered jack-of-all-trades in aRPG's
instead of having to use their damn class skills. Quote:
Yes, its not like picking non-combat class skills and levelling them like a normal RPG will get you raped with a broomhandle or anything. Oh lordy no, couldn't be. Obviously the player is at fault if they have that kind of problem and I thank you for clarifying this to me. Next time I find oblivion hard I'll be sure to tag Longblades/heavy armor/shields and just stick to those rather then try to make a non-combat oriented character, or worse yet try to diversify skills beyond 'thief-wizard-warrior' :thumb:
In all seriousness I don't care for level scaling. I may be nostalgic but I never remember having a problem with enemies getting more difficult a you progress further into the game. imo it destroys a sense of accomplishment if every enemy levels up when you do and everything is a deadly as it was five levels ago.. I wouldn't like playing Fallout 1 and having all the raiders replaced by super mutants and deathclaw once I hit level 12 or have all the wolves in Arcanum replaced by those goddamned black dogs once I hit 25.
The other issue I have with is that scaling encourages players to game the stat system. Is it worth it to level up speech/sneaking/stealing/etc if the net gain is making the entire game harder for yourself? The combat related challenges don't get easier just because you can talk or pick lock while the non-combat ones can be glossed over if your good enough at killing things. This is also true in other, non-scaled RPGs but not to the same extent.. After a certain point it feels like the game is actively punishing the player for specializing in non-combat skills or (GASP) daring to level up like in every other category of RPG ever.
Nameless Voice on 8/1/2011 at 16:09
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Morrowind didn't scale afaik. There were weaker enemies in the lower level areas so you stood a chance. It was still hard though. And at a certain point in the game demons of a fairly high level began appearing.
What was good about it was that at low level you couldn't waltz into The Dungeon Of DOOOOM and at high level if you went to some low level areas the enemies were easy to swat away.
Not true. If you visited a daedric ruin at low levels, there would be no daedra there, just worshippers. The really nasty monsters wouldn't even appear until you were high enough level. It was much, much more subtle than Oblivion, though, where even bandits starts wearing daedric and glass armour when you gain levels, and any training spent in a major non-combat skill makes you relatively weaker compared to your enemies.
I still think that Gothic had the best approach - some areas are populated with really strong monsters right from the beginning, and trying to approach them at low level equals pretty much instant death unless you can run fast. It did tend to spawn more, nastier monsters into the world as you progressed along the main storyline, making previously "safe" areas more dangerous, but that still managed to give the illusion of a permanent world where everything wasn't completely adjusted around the player. The ability to add more, tougher monsters only worked because Gothic's main quest line was linear, though, but the basic concept of fixed monsters in fixed locations would work in even a sandbox RPG.
I haven't had any issues with levelled nonsense in Fallout 3 or New Vegas, though. Their level of levelling is fine.
SubJeff on 8/1/2011 at 16:20
Yes daedra I meant, not demons.
That was more of a tipping point though. If you went to those ruins the followers would still kick your ass.
I don't mind tougher creatures appearing in places they didn't used to, like in the starting/lower level areas. What I mind is creatures getting tougher as you do so that an animal that you were equal to at level 3 is still equal to you at level 23.
