Level scaling OR Don't play RPGs then girlie man.

Thirith on 8/1/2011 at 16:27

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

I don't mind tougher creatures appearing in places they didn't used to, like in the starting/lower level areas. What I mind is creatures getting tougher as you do so that an animal that you were equal to at level 3 is still equal to you at level 23.

They're both instances of enemy scaling; it's simply that the one is implemented okay whereas the other is idiotic to the core. Obviously people don't want the latter.

It's also a question of making it work in the game fiction: for instance, with the way the story progresses in Oblivion, they could very easily have had more and more daedra, and more high level ones, spawning as the number of open Oblivion Gates increases.

Nameless Voice on 8/1/2011 at 17:21

(Most) Animals weren't levelled in Oblivion (special ones involved in quests being an exception). Bears killed you at low levels because they were just ridiculously tough, but they didn't get tougher as you advanced in levels.

Another serious issue that Oblivion had due to its idiotic level scaling was that shops were totally useless. They sold nothing but iron and steel weapons, maybe an occasional and rare item of silver or Elven, but nothing better. As such, there were no great items to save up your money to buy. Instead, to get the best weapons and armour in the game, you simply needed to level up enough, and then kill a few bandits (light armour) or marauders (heavy armour) and take their amazing weapons and armour.

I wish I knew where the blacksmiths who supplied the outlaws lived, since they're clearly much better than the civilised ones living in cities. :p

icemann on 8/1/2011 at 17:24

I hate level scaling. What was ever wrong with setting levels for enemies per area like what had always been done before. Sure if you add it in it makes a game ALOT harder, but wheres the sense of accomplishment in that. Grr.

In Oblivion I fucking HATED IT. I'd pumped several weeks into the game before it became a serious issue, and once it was an issue it just made the game completely unfun for me. And I absoluely loved the game till then. Made me regret buying the ps3 version. If I'd got the pc one then I atleast could have applied a mod or somethin.

In Fallout 3 I never noticed it, and it was never ever an issue. In Vegas they appeared to use the set levels per zone thing so I was happy there also. In neither game did a previously fine area become completely unplayable. Unlike Oblivion.

Scaling was something I first ran into in Final Fantasy Tactics. Hated it in that as well. Was a major negative in an otherwise perfect game. Did any games do scaling before FF Tactics? I can't recall any. I'm pretty sure that it predates Morrowind.

ZylonBane on 8/1/2011 at 18:17

My vague understanding of how Fallout 3 level scaling works is that the first time you enter most areas, the enemies there are "locked" to a certain level relative to your current level. So you always get a decent challenge, but can still come back and wipe the floor with them when you're much more powerful.

Above information could be wrong.

All I know for sure is that in my current playthrough, all feral ghouls are pushovers except for Reavers, which are goddamn bullet sponges.

Nameless Voice on 8/1/2011 at 18:41

Yeah, the extra enemies added by Broken Steel (Feral Ghoul Reavers, Super Mutant Overlords, etc.) are just insanely tough to the point of being annoying. I don't think they really add to the gameplay.

Eldron on 8/1/2011 at 19:38

Daggerfall had level scaling

june gloom on 8/1/2011 at 22:35

I get a 24-hour ban and this thread happens? swear to god you people would be lost without me

As to the Broken Steel additions... the only one that was really a problem was the Reavers. Their high toughness felt incongruous- just because they're wearing metal armor doesn't mean they have to be boss mooks in their own right. The scorpions were rather rare, and I didn't have a very big problem with them; Overlords stopped being a problem when I realized I could target their weapons and they'd be much less dangerous.

Sulphur on 8/1/2011 at 22:58

You got banned? Did you reply to ~~Koki again~~ some spam?

This thread's original focus is misplaced. Oblivion and Morrowind's levelling sucked because they were broken right out of the gate. Like the more analytical have said, it's not because the mechanic is bad, it's because it was implemented in supremely idiotic fashion in those games.

Fallout 3's levelling works fine, more or less, because it isn't as obvious or transparently stupid. Like ZB says, there is a certain amount of scaling happening depending on your level for each area you set foot into, and it remains 'locked' to that level once you've entered it.

Level scaling is a concession modern open-world RPGs make because it removes the frustration of wandering into any random area and getting slain because you had no idea what the threat level of the enemies was. True, it dumbs shit down considerably, but it alleviates that frustration of randomly getting beat upon and reloading until you grind your level up by hacking up rats in sewers for an entire week.

I don't completely like it - I'd prefer the system in Gothic and Risen along with generous heapings of common sense and signposting - but it can be implemented in more intelligent ways that don't make people fly into a bloody rage.

CCCToad on 8/1/2011 at 23:15

Quote Posted by Sulphur

Level scaling is a concession modern open-world RPGs make because it removes the frustration of wandering into any random area and getting slain because you had no idea what the threat level of the enemies was. True, it dumbs shit down considerably, but it alleviates that frustration of randomly getting beat upon and reloading until you grind your level up by hacking up rats in sewers for an entire week.

Thing is, thats a frustration thats easily avoidable by other means. For example, a lot of RPGs will use "Screener" mobs: if you aren't able to survive in an area, you're going to have a hard time even getting in. Limited use fast-travel mechanisms also work. The hearthstone in World of Warcraft was designed in part to allow players to escape frustrating situations like that.

Not to say that I dislike level scaling entirely. If its designed so that powerful mobs have a small chance to show up anywhere, it stops the player from getting complacent when he's in areas that would otherwise be completely safe.

Nameless Voice on 8/1/2011 at 23:47

Quote Posted by dethtoll

Overlords stopped being a problem when I realized I could target their weapons and they'd be much less dangerous.

Yeah, I'd usually just run right up close to them and hack at their arms until they dropped their guns, then quickly scoop them up. Didn't make their insane mountains of hit points any less boring, though, nor did it change the fact that they're almost as tough as Behemoths - which are special, unique boss monsters - despite being a random encounter.