Level scaling OR Don't play RPGs then girlie man.

Phatose on 10/1/2011 at 06:05

Quote Posted by Chade

*shrug* That's a mere detail. Oblivion's systems had problems, sure, but IMO that's not a particularly interesting one.

Also, encouraging stealth from stealth based characters is not punishing them!

But it doesn't encourage them - that's the whole point. A thief who doesn't sneak and doesn't lockpick, instead opting to go into combat first ends up at a low level but with very high combat skills. Thus, he's not only better in direct combat then the thief who plays like a thief, he's also fighting weaker enemies and thus has an easier time all around.

Then you take the stat gain mechanic into play. Enemies get stronger by the same amount now matter how many stats points you gain per level. You gain stats from using minor abilities as well as major ones, but only major ones cause level ups. So, a player who sticks to their class gain more levels, but less stat points versus one who doesn't. Again, a thief who sneaks first and foremost ends up with less stats then one who fights instead.

And it works out the same way no matter how you actually intend to play the game. Thief, mage, fighter - You're always best off choosing a class exactly opposite to what you actually want to do. That's a pretty goddamn poor design.

Quote Posted by Jason Moyer

I found Oblivion easy as piss as either a Thief or Assassin, but YMMV. There were aspects of the stealth I didn't like but overall I found it as overpowered as it is in Morrowind and FO3.

I'm not claiming otherwise - only that if you intended to focus on stealth, you'd end up with a much easier time if you declared your class as a fighter.

Dresden on 10/1/2011 at 11:03

Quote Posted by Nameless Voice

Yeah, the stat bonuses are idiotic, I hope they get rid of those in Skyrim. You always feel the need to constantly minmax which skills you gain, because otherwise you're at a serious disadvantage with regards to your stats. The fact that the hit point bonus for Endurance isn't retroactive just makes it far, far worse.

In MW, maybe. Oblivion was easy enough to never need that. All they have to do is go back to Daggerfall's way and give you, lets say, 9 points to spend in anything you want at level up. Especially since we can then use them in Luck and not feel like we're not wasting a shitload of points. Fuck.

DDL on 10/1/2011 at 12:24

The other thing to consider in the sneak/fight decision is of course that sneaking past people very rarely gets you exp in these sort of games. Alpha protocol was a pleasant surprise in that evaded enemies were exp gained at the end of the level (as far as I could tell), making ghosting not just a challenge, but a rewarding one.

Another way would be to make enemies worth little exp, but quests lots, so it makes little difference if you hack your way to the gemstone of uberness or just grab it while nobodies looking. This also cuts down on extraneous grinding for levels by making it so onerous as to be not worthwhile (apart from the people who really would kill 20000 goblins to get a minor advantage).

Anyway, yes, the elder scrolls levelling mechanic is stupid. Mind you, if you deliberately approach it with that in mind, it's not too bad..

Nameless Voice on 10/1/2011 at 14:26

Some of the better RPGs don't give you XP for killing anyway, e.g. Deus Ex or Vampire: Bloodlines.

And, of course, The Elder Scrolls don't have XP at all. The only thing you gain from combat is to increase your combat-related skills... and the enemies' loot, of course.

Thirith on 10/1/2011 at 15:02

I quite like the idea of skills getting better if you practice them, especially in contrast to the "Kill lots of enemies so you can then raise your charisma/speechcraft" school of RPG design. Was it mainly the stats bonuses that screwed things up in the Elder Scrolls games? What would be better ways of implementing such a progress/leveling system?

steo on 10/1/2011 at 15:15

It was mainly the level scaling and minor skills not counting to level-ups that screwed up Oblivion. It meant that you could raise your blade skill by 30 points without levelling up if it was tagged as a minor skill, making you do much more damage without making enemies any tougher. but if it was a major skill, you would have gone up three levels and enemies would have gotten tougher accordingly, in turn reducing/nullifying any benefit from raising the skill. Hence, it's best to put all your major skill tags in the skills you use the least because that way you can improve all your combat skills without levelling up and making the enemies harder. Doing this is exploiting the system to max, but the flaws in the system can still be pretty catastrophic if you play the game normally.

As has been mentioned, if you have a character who focuses heavily on speechcraft/mercantile as major skills, you can level those two up loads in town, get lots of level-ups which increases the level of all enemies, leave town and promptly get mullered by the first crappy bandit you see, because while you may have the charisma and bartering skills of a level 15 character, you still have the combat skill of a level 1 character (albeit with a few more hit points) and the bandit has been scaled to be an appropriate challenge to a player with the combat skills of a level 10 character. Had you left town without levelling those non-combat skills, the 'same' bandit would be scaled more appropriately to your combat skills and you wouldn't have a problem.

The cop-out fix for this that Bethesda included was to have a difficulty slider which can be adjusted at any time and scales enemy hit points and damage. So combat characters can scale it up, while non-combat characters can scale it down.

Nameless Voice on 10/1/2011 at 15:33

But for the most part, you do need to actually use the skill.
You won't get better at casting Destruction spells unless they actually hit someone to hurt, for example. And the skills without that tend to take forever to level up, to the point of annoyance.
Mercantile and Speechcraft are two of the worst skills in the game for two reasons: not only are they fairly useless, but they're extremely slow and tedious to raise. Want to raise Speechcraft? You basically have to grind the incredibly boring speechcraft minigame. Want to improve Mercantile? You generally have to sell each of your items one at a time since that way you get more checks towards it, because otherwise it'll barely increase no matter how much junk you sell throughout your life.

steo on 10/1/2011 at 15:37

Haha, I used a stack of coins in Morrowind. While I see that it does encourage grinding, I don't really see that as a massive problem in a sandbox-style game, provided there are enough quests and such to do so that the grinding doesn't become a necessity. If people want to spend hours killing rats, let them. I suppose it would be better if there were limits to the skill you could attain from killing lesser enemies, in the same way that XP rewards are scaled as you level-up in other games, but overall, Oblivion's way of doing it does seem to make the most sense in a sandbox game, even if it is horribly implemented.

Nameless Voice on 10/1/2011 at 15:49

I also love the idea of usage-based skills, but I also have to admit that it leaves the game feeling a lot less... strategic. In a game where you get to choose which skills to improve when you level up, you need to make the choice of which skill you want to spend your points in, which in turn is defining your character's strengths and weaknesses. In Elder Scrolls games, you can just use whatever skills you feel like and become a master of all trades (if you're patient enough). It eliminates a lot of the choice from developing your character, replacing it with (in theory) just becoming better at what you are by simply playing.

steo on 10/1/2011 at 16:27

Hey! I jump everywhere because it's faster, not for the acrobatics skill increase. :mad:

You both make good points though. To some extent, picking spells and such added some strategy in Oblivion, but I'd agree that it's nowhere near as strategic as levelling up in, say, Neverwinter Nights 2. The inclusion of fallout-style perks might help the strategic element in Skyrim, but I can't see them being that significant a thing. Maybe it's more notable than the graphical improvements though...

Also, I don't see how grinding could be eliminated in a sandbox game like Oblivion, short of removing all experience rewards outside of quests, which I don't like the idea of.