Taffer36 on 12/5/2009 at 03:30
What do you guys think?
Should Thief 4 feature a linear set of missions that are inherently nonlinear, but you move from confined space to confined space? Basically the Thief 1 and Thief 2 system?
Should it be a Thief 3 setup, where you return to a city hub after every separate mission (imagine NOT having the city split up into eighty different sections, though).
Should it be a GTA IV style setup in that the player is dropped into the main overworld, and from there the story directs you to specific locations where the missions take place?
Do you want more than one ending? Do you want sections where you can make choices to impact things? Do you prefer a story that is set in stone?
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Personally, I'd kind of like to see a system with a main overworld city, and the story can direct the player to locations where individual missions take place. I think most people here might want the Thief 1 and 2 system more, but I think an overworld could work very well if executed correctly and could help in creating a living, breathing city. It'd also be cool to see it change dynamically according to the plot throughout the story, such as going through seasons, or more guards being on patrol after a big incident in the story, or crime becoming more rampant according to the plot, etc. I'd also be up for day and night cycles, although it'd have to be done well. Maybe you'd have to return home to your bed to change from day to night quickly? Maybe a simple wait system akin to the Elder Scrolls games (I wouldn't lean towards this as there's really no good way to do this presentation-wise in a non RPG game, IMO).
Stath MIA on 12/5/2009 at 03:40
I'd say that a single (freakin' huge) city hub would be cool if they did it right, but the primary focus should be on getting the individual missions to feel like they did in the LGS games. As for the multiple ending idea, no, it would subtract from the idea of fate present in the others. Garrett's motives were never in line with the way the overall plot turned out and therefore the player gets the distinct sense that they are being drawn along by an "invisible hand" and yet it doesn't feel forced. Giving the player too much free would break this theme. Also the idea of a dynamic (ever changing) city is definitely a good one, let events actually effect shape the environment.
Cobak on 12/5/2009 at 03:42
After Deadly Shadows I really just think having the city to explore outside of the missions will most likely be a let down and take too much of the development time if it isnt.
I'd vote for Thief 1 and 2 system and getting to explore parts of the city if the mission includes it (like Life of the Party).
I also think a big part of Thief is mystery and having the city so open will take the mystery away from it. Just give us large sprawling areas to explore in the missions and we won't care about any missing overworld!
Chade on 12/5/2009 at 03:46
I think a city section would potentially be a good way to satisfy the exploration guys, while letting the missions be more focussed on delivering storyline for the story guys.
You can stick implicit "exploration objectives" in the city by creating related items scattered throughout the city: storylines, jewellery collections, stuff like that.
Meanwhile, the more explicit loot objectives in the missions can be toned down, so that story-driven players can feel like they are "completing" the missions while still focusing primarily on driving the plot forwards.
The whole "mystery" thing is a genuine problem, I admit. But on balance I believe a city is still a good thing.
ganac on 12/5/2009 at 04:42
I'd like to see a hybrid of the two, with a whole city hub, including side missions like TDS (expanded even more), with long and explorable, non-linear missions like LoTP, integrated seamlessly between city mode and mission mode.
Taffer36 on 12/5/2009 at 04:47
The point that the city is meant to be a sort of a mystery is actually a very good one that I did not think of. I don't really have a counter-argument because it's a legitimate point; all I can really say is that I think the trade-off is worth it, IF they do it correctly of course. In the end I would rather take the Thief 1 and 2 system instead of a half-assed overworld.
However, I do think that this arbitrary concept of "missions" is something totally unnecessary. True, moving from setpiece to setpiece or location to location is important, but I don't think it's necessary to make it so clear cut. With an overworld, some portions of the story would ask you to wander around the city, maybe an objective could be to meet a specific person in an alleyway, or to go to the pub, and interspersed in would be an objective to rob this large mansion that you've passed several times, etc. I think it would help to blend things more and to make it feel, overall, much more organic instead of "I am on this mission 2. Now I am on mission 3, etc."
Also, like I said, I think it'd be cool to see how the world is being affected by what's going on. It'd still have to be done well, though. An overworld is pointless if there's nothing to do, although I think GTA IV shows that the main ingredient is as simple as AI reactions to the player.
Master Taffer 512 on 12/5/2009 at 07:10
While I don't think linearity is in any way bad (unlike game reviewers who seem to have labelled it taboo), it doesn't hold a -place int he Thief franchise. The primary appeal for me has always been the sprawling, non-linear level design. Shrinking the game to small, linear paths was DS's biggest blunder and that's not a path that should be travelled twice.
nicked on 12/5/2009 at 07:39
I'd like to see specific mission locations, with no pointless city-trawling to get between them, but the locations themselves be absolutely vast and non-linear.
jtr7 on 12/5/2009 at 07:59
The City could sprawl for exploration, while the mission and map are on a fairly linear path. I liked being able to go back to Farkus's after trailing the Assassins to Ramirez' place. One could go all the way back to Home Turf and just look around, open some of the doors, find the canal that would be important later on, and so on.
Kircaldy on 12/5/2009 at 08:02
It's a difficult decision. I'd really really like something akin to what assassins creed did (see my post (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1853249#post1853249) here), but I'd gladly sacrifice it if it is likely to get hampered like in TDS. But to play the equivalent of the LOTP intro, on your way to every (or most) main mission level(s) would really be amazing. Discovering strange and interesting things in murky areas, looting as you go. Yehaw!
Just like the "multiplayer or not" question, I guess it boils down to: do it properly or don't do it at all. If the engine supports it REALLY WELL in its unmodified state, it might be worth a shot. Otherwise, it'll probably be another TDS failure, where devs set grand goals but have to dump most of it mid-development and rush something together.
