Mapping out The City. - by Digital Nightfall
Baggins on 17/3/2014 at 22:14
Quote:
city layouts can change over the years. I'm not sure how we would be able to explain the moving of Old Quarter in the map.
This is true, and its a point that several documents and characters mention in the game. The Hidden City, old cities, city built on cities, vanished quarters, Edgar being the stonemason of the earliest City, references in Clockwork's shop, the references to Cinderfall being a new district built in the last 15 years or so, the multiple catastrophes mentioned in the Thief Companion app and in game that have each destroyed the city only for a new one to take it's place (and a new Baron dynasty to take its place), the references to Theodore Eastwick being behind most of the modern city's architecture and layout, etc...
Trying to merge the two map projects would be unreliable. It might be possible to do one of those morphing animated maps that hints at changes over time. But they can't both exist as one slice of time.
Quote:
'm not sure how we would be able to explain the moving of Old Quarter in the map.
Massive earthquake shifting, plate tectonics, faulting, burned to the ground, the Great Storm/Tempest wiping out the buildings, and rebuilt elsewhere. It's all hinted at in the City's past. How much of the Old Quarter is the original Old Quarter, and how much of it is something built on top of previous districts after a major disaster?
We can even wonder how much of the city changed from The Catastrophe of c. x85/385 (The Eye and Sealed Quarter) and present. Even old Garret mentions that his maps were 50+ years old from before the Catastrophe, and that things may have changed in the intermediate years between!
Vae on 17/3/2014 at 22:20
Quote Posted by Baggins
I think Thief 4 is potentially a What If a new story takes place from the Original Trilogy's future, but not necessarily the future that LGS or even Ion Storm would have set up for the series.
Yes...The NuThief devs have already stated that it is an "alternate universe"...a universe that is "re-imagined", as an incongruent, alternate reality.
Baggins on 17/3/2014 at 22:26
Quote Posted by Vae
Yes...The NuThief devs have already stated that it is an "alternate universe"...a universe that is "re-imagined", as an incongruent, alternate reality.
I don't know if they said 'alternate universe' specifically. In this interview they said 'same universe';
Quote:
Silshas: This Thief game is built to stand on its own from the original trilogy, but are there any nods within the game to the past Thief games that players of the past Thief games will recognize?
Emanuel: Yes, there's a lot throughout the whole game. There are the really obvious ones... Anybody familiar with the classic games will recognize characters like Garrett, the Baron and Basso, of course. It's also the
same City with the same layout, the same districts, the clocktower; we almost didn't change the layout of the City at all.
It's the same universe. It's really the old school players who are big fans and really know the first 3 games that will recognize all of the little nods, and we have them spread everywhere.
The big reason for this is that including all of these little nods actually makes the universe more coherent. The game is a reboot,
but this is still the Thief universe so they needed to be there.
Steven: Well, the obvious one is that the main character is called Garrett. Then, there is his reliable fence Basso, of course. There are nods everywhere for people that are looking for them. The fun for hardcore players is to find these nods. And for sure, they're peppered everywhere -
this is the Thief universe.
I've said before in interviews for fans of the previous games: this is a new game, and a new story. And even though you don't need to have played the previous games to enjoy it, as an old player, you have the opportunity to fall in love with Garrett all over again. You're going to walk through this story and this world and feel like you're at home. (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143558&page=2)
Their interpretation of 'same layout' however is well up to interpretation.
Baggins on 17/3/2014 at 22:42
BTW, on that concept art, the docks shown on the map, may be Wayside Docks? But you don't visit that in the game (although its existence is mentioned). You do get to visit Riverside docks, which is on one of the City's rivers. The game hints at least 2-3 rivers, and some tributaries.
Power City is to the right of Auldale, across the big river that Auldale bridge crosses.
There is also possibility that parts of Old Quarter stretch between South Quarter and the Docks (which might also explain the vanished quarters' as well). In game there is largely a load screen between those two areas (South Quarter and Riverside), and room for even more space in between (and some unused gates that may hint at extra level areas). Honestly the maps, compasses, etc, don't always match up in the game even. The map of Auldale and the Map of Dayport district for example are the same map but with a couple of text elements changed to make it look like a different map (and different sets of rivers), with rivers that are north and south, and at least one river that runs east and west!
Is it clear which Docks are the ones in Thief 3 (is it Wayside or something else)?
Vae on 17/3/2014 at 22:45
This is from the former Eidos Montreal Community Manager...
Quote Posted by b1skit
So before I start, I know most of you are aware but to clarify - the story of Eidos-Montreal's Thief is neither a prequel nor a sequel to the narrative of the classic Thief games. It stands on its own as a brand new story in the Thief franchise. My personal analogy is to say that it takes place in a (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universe_(fiction)) parallel Thief universe.
The narrative occurs at a later point in history seen before in the Thief franchise - this story occurs in a somewhat more modern, pre-industrial/Victorian time. The original factions have not been forgotten or left out of the game - as you mention Subjective Effect, the first demo shown took place in the 'House of Blossoms' - the former Keeper Library.
I can't reveal too much, but since the point in history you're familiar with in the Thief world something has happened that resulted in big consequences for the Keepers and many other factions. To be clear, the Keepers still very much existed in the past and their impact on the world is all around in this universe - but we're at a different point in time. Keep in mind, again, that this is an alternative storyline, not a continuation or re-telling - but anybody familiar with the classic Thief games will still definitely recognize much in the universe.
To answer your questions in advance: Yes, this will be explained in the game for those of you who will hunt for it, but no, it's not a major narrative pillar.
We've got a trailer (and a community video) on the way that will explain a lot of the things around the story, lore and the factions we'll find at conflict. I saw the latest cut recently and it's looking awesome - can't WAIT to see it out there :)
Baggins on 17/3/2014 at 22:49
Quote Posted by Vae
This is from the former Eidos Montreal Community Manager...
There appears to at least been differing opinions between different developers on the staff, on how they viewed the game, and were treating the material.
This might also explain the disconnect between some of the material, and quality of the material.
It also sounds awefully like the Timeline explanation of time travel. Michael Crichton's explanation of time travel... You travel back in time to other periods, but those periods are 'parallel' to our own, like a coiled spring. So while you are traveling to a parallel universe actions in the past will still have impact on the future (but we are just further up the spring, than the past was, you basically pass from one coil to the next)... Ya, it didn't make much sense. But the gist was 'eras and parallel' universes are basically the same thing... Something can be an past era, but also be different universe, but the past can still have an impact on the current present. It all makes up 'history' (the "narrative occurs in a later point in history", "since the point in history you are familiar with...something has happened with consquences","we are at a different point in time")... :p
It also sounds awefully like Tolkien's explanations of his own world... Middle-Earth is in the past, and we are in a later age, and that it existed on a 'separate realm of creation" in his mind (he used both of these explanations throughout his life). Both ideas weren't necessarily intended to be mutually exclusive, or contradictory, or that he changed viewpoints.
In game the explanation for the event that had consequences for the religions, is that religion was banned by the Northcrests for generations...
Ya, it is not a 'continuation', or a re-telling. Its a different Garrett, and he has his own issues to deal with in his own present time (his actions have nothing to do with the old stories).
Vae on 17/3/2014 at 23:03
Right...Even Stephane Roy, the producer of the project said that it is "re-imagined" (look for it, if you like)
All of this amounts to, an alternate universe...one with an alternate timeline, and alternate universe construction. Keeping some bits, and discarding or re-imagining others.
A terrible shame, it has become such a mess.
Baggins on 17/3/2014 at 23:10
Quote Posted by Vae
Right...Even Stephane Roy, the producer of the project said that it is "re-imagined" (look for it, if you like)
All of this amounts to, an alternate universe...one with an alternate timeline, and alternate universe construction. Keeping some bits, and discarding or re-imagining others.
A terrible shame, it has become such a mess.
Actually it doesn't sound like he specifically said they 'disregarded' anything. Just that they set this one in a different point in time, and something happened in the time we are all familiar with that lead to the end of the Keepers, Hammerites, and Pagans. That you would be able to find an explanation of those in the game... Which as mentioned the explanation is that a later Baron Ulysses Northcrest outlawed religion, and every northcrest after that suppressed religion. All of which really is not a continuation of old Garrett's story, but is setup for background for the world new Garrett lives in.
If anything all it suggests is that this alternate universe is different than what TGS/Ion Storm would have done, but the old games are still a point in history to this game. Where it diverges is Northcrests ban religion and other sects. Whereas in TGS/Ion Storm religion and sects would never have been banned, there future if they had continued to write it would probably still had hammerites, pagans, and keepers (?/questionable as they were pretty much wiped out at the end of 3 anyways).
Let's face it, if the team had been less diplomatic about it and said that oh ya we are telling our story and its a continuation but with different Garrett in a different era. People would have complained because they changed it so much... They complain that it was changed so much anyways. People don't like the implications that old Garrett would have ended up in an asylum (just think if the designers said oh ya this is the original TGS/Ion Storm universe).
At least they were diplomatic, and you assume that there is a universe where old gods are still worshiped, and were never banned. That Old Garrett was never put into an asylum.
Most alternate universe stories tend to always choose a point in time, and ask a certain 'what if'. In this games case its after original Thiefs 'what if' the gods were no longer worshiped, and there were no longer any religious or supernatural factions ruling the city. Hence, we have the Northcrests outlawing everything supernatural and religious. That is the crux of why the present is the way it is in the new game.
Then the plot plays with this secular humanist/atheist/reason view vs the coming of new religion through Orion (fanatical religion is made reference by most of his followers seeing him as a savior figure towards the end of the game). So you have two extremes reason and no spiruality vs fanatical extremist spiritual forces. Two brothers opposing and opposite view points. One based on iron and stone/order, and the other flesh and blood/nature/chaos as rhetoric is repeated by both factions fighting over Primal. Queen of Beggars sits in the middle, discussing how Primal must be put into balance.
Vae on 17/3/2014 at 23:20
You're being far too City-centric and historically-minded...There is far more to the world than "the City", and there is far more to a universe than "history".
Baggins on 17/3/2014 at 23:27
LOL, actually the Thief Companion App is that way (City-centric and historical-minded)! Also the game itself is stuck on referencing the 800 year timeline mentioned in the companion app (dividing it mainly into Bresling and Northcrest eras), and setting up Primal as the power behind the Builder, Trickster, and the Keeper's glyphs (ya, a major retcon). Even Garrett when you first enter the Keeper's library discusses how the city is layered upon forgotten history! Plus the idea that major catastrophes destroy the city, and start new dynasties and histories (starting new eras from the ruins of the old), and his speech just as you see the haunted Cathedral about it being used by a sect of desperate believers, and now a new desperate individuals now living there.
In anycase, what does 'outside' the city have to do much of anything? The game doesn't really explore outside the city. Although you do get references to Bohn, Cyric, Blackbrook, Illyria and Throvia. They are more or less in line with few mentions in the previous games for those locations (there is a reference to the Blackbrook civil war with the Baron from many centuries back, which is a nod to Thief 2). But really doesn't add much to the main theme of the story or the plot.
Perhaps that's a weakness of the new game's story... The suggestion by Queen of Beggars that the destruction of Primal means the destruction of the city, and the complete distruction of the city would be mean the end of the world (everything would be taken out of balance). The city is treated as something metaphysically important, and almost alive!
