Yakoob on 10/4/2011 at 17:07
Hmm to salvage this thread from "lol wrong forum phail :joke:" and take it in a more worthwhile "lol yakoob more like yanoob amirite :joke:" direction, let me ask the dreaded question:
What was the point of this 'accomplishment' ?
Now before you all jump out at me, I'm not discrediting the 'fun' the person had while building the cathedral (and that, alone, is probably reason enough). But when people go around advertising what they have done (though, granted, in this case it was his friend, but I am talking about more broadly, not limited to just Minecraft), I feel it usually implies the thing they have done extends beyond just 'little fun time hobby' and somewhere into an 'accomplishment' category.
I feel this is a bit different than hundreds of the youtube videos showing 'my awesome Morrowing armor' or the 'lets play' series. Both of these I feel are entirely within the realm of the 'game,' what the designers gave you and wanted you to find. Yes, it takes a lot of work to get some of these things, but still, its more or less within the scope of the playing experience.
Now the Notre Dame cathedral, and similar such accomplishments (Garry's mod huge creations, or those scenes of your game painstakingly recorded with fraps and reedited overlaying lines from your favorite movie) extend way beyond that. You're no longer 'playing the game,' you're creating something completely new and original. You are, in a way, 'accomplishing' something.
And that is what takes me back to my original question - what is the purpose of such an accomplishment? After all, it's not something you do on a Sunday night while drinking a beer; this kinda shit takes days, if not weeks, hours in front of the computer, and ultimately, lots of planning (floor plans, or at least, tons of reference photos and good architectural mind). It takes a considerable investment to reach such an accomplishment.
An accomplishment that accomplishes what, exactly? Sure you get your 10 minute youtube video that some 2k people will see, some may even 'like' it. But beyond that? What's worst, it's all virtual and seemingly limited just to the person who made it. It's not a painting you can hang on a wall to make your house more pleasant. It's not a book you can lend to your friend and challenge his viewpoints. Nor is it an amazing demo reel that will sure get you the assistant director position on Lost. And it's not even something you will bring up in a drunk conversation with your buds saying 'remember that one time I made that cathedral, yeah that was fucking awesome' - after a week, you will probably forget all about it.
Tens of hours gone to... what exactly?
Now I've put some three months of sometimes 10hour long work days into a personal coding project of mine (which I do find hella fun), but ultimate, I hope to release a game I have been designing off of it; something I can share and spread around, something people will enjoy. And, if I am lucky, something that might just turn in some profit, or at least, be something that might help me with my career.
And in contrast, there were some projects akin to this that I started on but quit about an hour realizing just how much effort it would take for, ultimately, just a tiny little youtube video. And, between classes, part time work and social life, I realize just how little time I have to work on these kind of projects, so I feel this time could be used better for, ultimately, more productive ideas.
Please note I am not attacking the person who made this (although it sure as fuck looks like I am), I'm just wondering over the logic behind it. I've been noticing a lot in myself lately starting on these kind of project only to quit 10 minutes into it thinking "it's too much work for minimal gain."
Or maybe I'm just too obsessed with giving my own work meaning (although, ironically, I am quite nihilistic in my beliefs) that I unfairly discredit grueling work if it does not yield plausible benefits to its maker? Or maybe, this is all done solely for one's enjoyment? Shit, maybe the whole mistake I am making is by even calling it 'work' instead of, perhaps, 'leisure time?' And even though lacking any lasting result, these type of things are still probably far more productive or creativity-promoting than the 40hours I clocked on my last Final Fantasy 3/6 play through?
demagogue on 10/4/2011 at 17:24
Well that's why I was thinking people probably don't do this for the end result.
If you really wanted to spend a lot of time making a cool 3D cathedral, you'd do it in Blender or Lightwave and get the perfect textures and light it well. And if you wanted people to walk around in it you'd make it for a 3D engine. And if you spent the same amount of time, it would look *awesome*... You're not losing time digging up rock and smelting it but pushing polys and placing the lights and making it look damn good.
So that leads me to think people do this as part of a ritual in itself, the actual construction part. They want to get in the game world and actually dig up the rocks and lay out the plans and stack the pillars... It doesn't really have to do with making a cathedral at all, but the process of being in the world and doing this ritual... Then the cathedral stands at the end as a testament to everything you did.
I read some article about the "ritual" function of gaming for a lot of people in our times, the closest we get to a kind of secular spiritual discipline, and these kinds of projects are sort of the poster-children for that idea IMO ... where it's the act of doing it that's important, not what you end up with. (Very reminiscent of when I was doing calligraphy in Japan; all those Zen arts are about the process of making something, not so much the thing itself.) Open games like Minecraft are special in the sense they let you get away from their own rulesets and do these personal rituals.
NathanGPLC on 10/4/2011 at 17:47
I think Demagogue pretty much hits the nail on the head; this is NOT the first Minecraft Notre Dame on Youtube, but the evolution of this project is something like:
Minecraft released
People start making crazy things
My friends and I see the 1:1 scale model of the Starship Enterprise youtube video.
This one friend of mine, who loves cathedrals, sees some Minecraft ones on Youtube.
His sees that they aren't to scale, or don't have an interior, or are made out of wool blocks on creative mode.
His mild OCD kicks in and he starts planning a full-scale Notre Dame, just to do it...and then his buddies badger him to make sure he records it as he makes it :-) (That was my fault, mostly).
The accomplishment for him was the act of creation--though that isn't to say he doesn't get satisfaction from sharing it; he seemed quite pleased when I mentioned to him that I was posting it here, hoping people would find it cool.
Which I think is legitimate, even on its own; I don't see any problem with people showing off their Morrowind character, their Minecraft projects, or their doctoral degrees. Humans crave validation for their feats, even the 'insignificant' ones. I'm a gamer, and I play a lot of D&D/other RPGs; when I'm around gamers, I tend to talk about cool characters of mine from the past, and they do likewise.
You do have a very good point, though, in that the 'target audience' is very important in what it makes sense to share; I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't play RPGs to care about my 12th level fighter/mage, and I wouldn't expect non-minecrafters to care overmuch about a minecraft project. I realize I should have put this thread in GenGaming, because the intent was to let others who might find it cool/impressive be cool-ed/impressed, and the Minecraft stuff is very clearly in GenGaming.
EDIT: Yakoob, I think you also come down to the right idea in your last paragraph there; making the Cathedral is akin to playing any long computer game. You do it to Do It, and then, like a Nightmare difficulty playthrough of certain games, people share it to get a pat on the back for Having Done It, nothing more required. :-)
Kolya on 10/4/2011 at 21:28
Just say that you don't get art and be done with it Yakoob instead of wasting precious electricity for these deep thoughts of yours that do nothing but betray a narrow mind.
Yakoob on 10/4/2011 at 23:38
cool post bro
Kolya on 11/4/2011 at 00:40
Of course not as cool as posting "(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135384&p=2059533&viewfull=1#post2059533) Aids" when someone asks about their dream.
Or asking for the "benefit" when someone creates something that everyone finds to be amazing and beautiful and knows it was a lot of work.
What's the benefit of having someone like you around, Yakoob? I mean, it may look like fun to you. But what's the benefit?
Yakoob on 11/4/2011 at 01:19
For starters, I explain my thoughts and try to push the discussion in a new direction rather than dismiss valid points without any counter-arguments aside from a cleverly disguised ad hominem.
As for the aids post, that falls in the "for shits and giggles" category the entire thread has already started to diverge into. Dont like it? Just move along then; it doesn't detract from the rest of the posts, nor serve as a drive-by insult.
I wouldnt mind your claims of my narrow mind if you actually bother to properly argue them.
EDIT: also, I'm not quite sure if I would classify this as 'art.' Impressive feat surely, but art? Then again, people pay (
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/11/b2003/hm11_4_88.html) a million dollars for a painting of a black square on a black background, so what do I know.
Koki on 11/4/2011 at 06:54
Quote Posted by Yakoob
What was the point of this 'accomplishment' ?
It could be worse you know. At least he did it on a server so you can log into Minecraft, join and see it yourself. If he did it in singleplayer I would e-kick him in the e-balls.
Shakey-Lo on 11/4/2011 at 08:54
Self expression.
Kolya on 11/4/2011 at 12:06
What pissed me off is that you actually know full well what the point or benefit of this accomplishment is: Fun and yes - self expression for the builder, amazement laughs and inspiration for everyone who sees it.
But you just exclude these and keep on asking for the "benefit", thereby narrowing down the definition to ... what exactly? Something of practical value, something that makes money? That's what it apparently boils down to.
I'll show how you exclude other benefits:
You said it's not a picture you could hang on your wall.
That is correct, it's a digital object. And that is the reason why many more people will be able to see it, than if it was a painted picture in someone's house.
And you said it is not a book that you can lend to your friends and change their viewpoints because it's "only virtual".
But so is the content of any fiction book. And here is NathanGPLC, a friend of the author, who has seen it and deems it important enough to show it to us too.
And you said "it's not even something you will bring up in a drunk conversation with your buds". While I doubt that, the main point seems to be again to debase this digital piece by placing it in a real life context. Maybe he won't talk with his buds about it drinking beer in the pub. But many people will talk about it in digital places because it's a digital object. Is that nothing?
But it won't bring the builder any personal profit, like a demo reel that lands you a job.
That is true, but does a lack of profit really mean there's no benefit or point to this? How many works of art never gained a profit to their author? Does that mean they were useless, without benefit?
So you excluded all these points, mainly in an anti-digital and profit orientated manner. And then you ask for the benefit. That is a very narrow definition. And a weird one to post on a digital discussion board. And that's why I turned it back at you. Partly an ad hominem because I was pissed, but also because there's no benefit to being and writing here by your definition.
